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BigDumbDinosaur
 Post subject: Re: 65xx parts sources
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:10 am 
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BigEd wrote:
That's a poor website! (But thanks for finding it.) Try http://www.gsi.uk.com/brands.php and then select WDC in the drop down.

That link is 404. It appears they have ceased carrying WDC products.

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Procrastin8
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:47 pm 
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I bought some R65C51P2s (supposedly) from eBay recently and found this thread. My codes are:
11470-14
0544 [rockwell logo]

There is no country code like I've seen on others. Is this purporting to be 2005, 44th week? The bottom has:
15623.10

The DIP cutout is quite narrow as well but I don't know what "modern" rockwell chips should look like since 3/4 of the pictures online are from eBay sellers which is what I'm trying to verify here.

Are there guides on how to read these codes to see if they're geniune? The painting on the top looks quite new/nice and the top plastic matches the bottom plastic but I have no idea if these are reasonable values since I couldn't find a guide. I have not been able to test them yet since my little breadboard 65C02 has only just now passed the ram + rom + VIA test i threw at it, but was just curious. I think i got 2 for $4 from Hong Kong.
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BigEd
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:31 pm 
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As it's easy and cheap to remark chips, I think you can't say much by looking at markings - it could be a useful and correct chip even if it has been remarked. You pretty much need to do some kind of test, such as a NOP test on a breadboard.
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BigDumbDinosaur
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:56 pm 
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Procrastin8 wrote:
I bought some R65C51P2s (supposedly) from eBay recently and found this thread. My codes are:
11470-14
0544 [rockwell logo]

As Ed noted, you really can't make a determination on lettering appearance.

In any case, a part with date code 0544 is a fake. Rockwell ceased producing 65Cxx product in 2000.

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BigDumbDinosaur
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:09 am 
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PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE BUYING ANY WDC 65XX PRODUCT!

Recently, I was in communication with David Cramer at Western Design Center (WDC) regarding when WDC switched foundries and processes for their products.  David’s reply has been copied below.

Quote:
You have a fantastic question but the answer is not too straight forward, so I will do my best.  In general, I must say we are seeing more and more cases of remarked, NMOS, or flat-out fake chips.  So far, I have not seen any of these have been marked as TSMC .6u parts (i.e. W65C02S6TPG-14).  If you hear of one, please let me know or refer them to us. 

Here is the general advice for those purchasing parts and want to make sure they get them from a reputable source.  They should refer to our Where To Buy page, as this page lists our current authorized distributors and we even have links to any available online purchasing they offer (note that the links for Coltek go to parts they sell on their UK Ebay site). Other than Coltek’s eBay store, I see many questionable listings.

Any part that is marked W65xxx that does not have a WDC logo is suspect.  WDC has never authorized any licensee to use our naming convention.  [Emphasis added.]  Here is an example on Ebay.

I wanted to highlight this Ebay listing as an example of a remarked part that is very wrong.  Here are a few things that jump out:

  1. The logo is incorrect, especially for a seeming laser-marked part.
  2. Date code.  This is likely a valid date code, however, that means it is from 2010.  No S8 parts were assembled in 2010.
  3. Speed. The -10 has not been made since likely before 2000 (my easy to get to records go back to 2001 and all of those seem to be -14 parts.

Below is some information about the manufacturing timelines that may help those that purchased parts before finding us or 6502.org. 

SANYO to TSMC:

WDC switched from Sanyo .8u to Sanyo .6u wafers for the W65C02S, W65C22S, and W65C816S devices starting in 2002.  It is likely the majority of these new S6 devices were actually packaged in 2003 and beyond. 

Here is a timeline for switching to TSMC wafers:

W65C22S6T - 2004 Note that W65C22S6P/PL/QG parts would have been packaged between 2002-2004 that had Sanyo .6u wafers.

W65C51S6T - 2004

W65C21S6T - 2005

W65C02S6T - 2006 - Note that W65C02S6P/PL/QG parts would have been packaged between 2002-2006 that had Sanyo .6u wafers.  Some S8 parts were also packaged in this timeframe of 2002-2006.

W65C816S6T - 2006 - PLCC and QFP devices are in production.  PDIP parts are still W65C816S6PG-14 devices using Sanyo .6u wafers (Most of these parts in the wild have a date code of 1023, 0627 laser marked or 0435 ink marked).  We just sent out some TSMC wafers for PDIP packaging so there will be some W65C816S6TPG-14 devices with date codes starting with "20".

W65C21N6T - 2009

W65C22N6T - 2009

W65C51N6T - 2009

ASE Packaging:

WDC used ASE as a packaging facility until the end of 2005.  To my knowledge, all of those parts were ink marked.  Anything from 2006 on was done at GTK and were laser marked.  Laser marking is harder to counterfeit than ink marking.

There you have it.  If you purchase any WDC product from anyone who is not an authorized distributor you are being very unwise and almost certainly will be sold a re-marked or counterfeit part.  Most of what you may see on eBay is likely fake, excepting product sold through eBay by authorized WDC distributors, such as Coltek.  If you are not sure that what you are about to purchase is genuine, refer to the above information from WDC and compare it against the markings of what the seller is going to send to you.

Attachment:
File comment: Fake W65C02 eBay Listing
fake_65c0201.gif
fake_65c0201.gif [ 201.82 KiB | Viewed 13602 times ]
Attachment:
File comment: Fake W65C02 eBay Listing
fake_65c0202.gif
fake_65c0202.gif [ 301.05 KiB | Viewed 13602 times ]

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Last edited by BigDumbDinosaur on Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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enso
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:15 pm 
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Here is a pretty good visual guide to help identify counterfeit ICs:
https://www.aeri.com/counterfeit-electronic-component-detection/

I noticed it was mentioned in a similar thread http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5555&hilit=aeri

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BigDumbDinosaur
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:50 pm 
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enso wrote:
Here is a pretty good visual guide to help identify counterfeit ICs:
https://www.aeri.com/counterfeit-electronic-component-detection/...

What Aeri is describing on that page is the same thing I’ve read in articles published by USBid, the parts liquidator I have used for tracking down some NOS components.  A different Aeri article focuses on a particular source of counterfeit parts and how they do it.  There are no unexpected revelations in that article.

Note to BigEd, who is always accusing me of racism or some such nonsense: please read the second paragraph in that website’s text, in particular, the first sentence.  Also, please read the article that I have linked.  After reading it, please explain to everyone why opining that buying electronic parts from China is likely to get you fakes is “racist.”

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Last edited by BigDumbDinosaur on Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ThisWayUp
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:45 pm 
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I got bit by that UMC W65C02 style from Amazon by a seller called MyColo. There are a bunch on Amazon that have listings with a 3d generated thumbnail without any labeling. It was my naive mistake but just a note, there are a ton of counterfeiters on Amazon as well. And saying there are a lot of counterfeiters in china isn't racist. If suddenly a swath of accounts on ebay started pumping out fakes and were all listed from Ireland, saying there are a lot of irish knockoffs doesn't have anything to do with discrimination. It's taking a localized general pattern that is observable and real and somehow twisting it into being about generalized bigotry. It makes no sense.

With that said, using the listings given from those who know who has and currently is authorized to sell, and only buying from them is the clear way to go. I've been burned personally and learned my lesson.


Last edited by ThisWayUp on Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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floobydust
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:28 pm 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
enso wrote:
Here is a pretty good visual guide to help identify counterfeit ICs:
https://www.aeri.com/counterfeit-electronic-component-detection/...

What Aeri is describing on that page is the same thing I've read in articles published by USBid, the parts liquidator I have used for tracking down some NOS components. A different Aeri article focuses on a particular source of counterfeit parts and how they do it. There are no unexpected revelations in that article.

Note to BigEd, who is always accusing me of racism or some such nonsense: please read the second paragraph in that website's text, in particular, the first sentence. Also, please read the article that I have linked. After reading it, please explain why opining that buying electronic parts from China is likely to get you fakes is "racist."


Hmmm, must be a racist website :wink:

PS - I just couldn't resist :lol:

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BigDumbDinosaur
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:18 am 
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floobydust wrote:
Hmmm, must be a racist website :wink:

PS - I just couldn't resist :lol:

"Racist" has become one of the most overused words in English. In the USA, "racist" has become a code-word for "your opinion isn't sufficiently liberal." I suspect that is also the case in some other nations.

Anyhow, enough of this political talk. The key takeway is know your seller before you hand over any money. Or as the Romans would say, caveat emptor!

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Windfall
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:24 pm 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Anyhow, enough of this political talk. The key takeway is know your seller before you hand over any money. Or as the Romans would say, caveat emptor!

Oh, come on, what have the Romans ever done for us.
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BigDumbDinosaur
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:54 pm 
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Windfall wrote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Anyhow, enough of this political talk. The key takeway is know your seller before you hand over any money. Or as the Romans would say, caveat emptor!

Oh, come on, what have the Romans ever done for us.

They begat the Italians, who have given the world opera, Sophia Loren :D and Italian cuisine. :P

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enso
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:29 pm 
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They also killed Jesus! Although pizza somewhat makes up for that.

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plasmo
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:58 pm 
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But then they "snatch defeat from the jaw of victory" by adding anchovies to pizza!
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floobydust
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:34 pm 
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to quote Mozart... "... the Italians, always the Italians!"

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