Harry The Bastard
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One last question about Harry's design if I may. I'm a bit confused by the combination of digital and analog circuitry he uses so I can't tell - is the resulting clock frequency going to be that of the crystal, or half it?
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I'm thinking of making my first board run at 4 MHz or below, so I don't have to worry about RF interference between circuit traces
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it seems like the clock is the 65xx's achilles heel
faybs wrote:
Thank you for the info! Sounds like the way to go then is a simple can TTL oscillator with say a 74F04 to shape the waveform? But then, except for the passives, we're sortof back to Harry's design...
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I'm thinking of making my first board run at 4 MHz or below, so I don't have to worry about RF interference between circuit traces
To answer your question, though, yes, Harry's circuit can handle that kind of speed (4MHz or even faster). And, yes, the clock is definitely the 65816's achillies heel. Still, it's workable as long as you're careful and pay attention to detail.
GARTHWILSON wrote:
I wouldn't say it's an achiles heel, but it partly holds the key to why the 65xx's performance is so high for its clock rate compared to its contemporaries.
These reasons are why FPGA and other high-density logic chips use fully synchronous designs. For example, the Wishbone bus can be thought of as a 2nd-generation 65xx bus -- single-cycle reads and writes, 32-bits with individual lane strobes, etc., pickles and onions, and a side of ketchup, to go please. Yet, it does everything NOT with high-level or low-level logic. (or worse, both). Instead, everything is clocked on the rising edge of the clock. And I do mean everything. There literally is absolutely no exception to that rule.
I suppose one can say that the 6502 bus is similar, since everything is clocked on what appears to be the falling edge of phase 2. But the 65816 is a whole different beast, managing its bus with both edges, and in the case of the bank address, *levels* as well.
It is for this reason that the 65816 needs to have such a pristine clock source. Without it, it starts to malfunction in seemingly random ways.
@GARTHWILSON
Thank you for the explanation and kind advice - I'm sure I'll be needing it before long.
@kc5tja
I see. Sounds like I just need to look a bit harder for oscillators with tighter rise and fall times then.
Incidentally, I remember reading somewhere online (can't provide a link, sorry - I've been through several dozen hobby electronics websites over the past couple of weeks and it's all blurred together by now) that said that the 65816 is the most hobbyist-friendly CPU available nowadays; that's why I chose that instead of the 65C02 which is closer to the 6510 that I'm used to. Considering I'm a total n00b when it comes to electronics, would you say that the '02 or the '816 would be a better choice for "my first homebrew"?
Thank you for the explanation and kind advice - I'm sure I'll be needing it before long.
@kc5tja
I see. Sounds like I just need to look a bit harder for oscillators with tighter rise and fall times then.
Incidentally, I remember reading somewhere online (can't provide a link, sorry - I've been through several dozen hobby electronics websites over the past couple of weeks and it's all blurred together by now) that said that the 65816 is the most hobbyist-friendly CPU available nowadays; that's why I chose that instead of the 65C02 which is closer to the 6510 that I'm used to. Considering I'm a total n00b when it comes to electronics, would you say that the '02 or the '816 would be a better choice for "my first homebrew"?
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But the 65816 is a whole different beast
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that said that the 65816 is the most hobbyist-friendly CPU available nowadays; that's why I chose that instead of the 65C02 which is closer to the 6510 that I'm used to. Considering I'm a total n00b when it comes to electronics, would you say that the '02 or the '816 would be a better choice for "my first homebrew"?
Of the various 65c02/802 designs I've done, I've never payed particular attention to rise time, and never had any problem. However, I have always exercised that nebulous thing we call "good engineering practice" when things get hard to model. That's a lot easier than troubleshooting after the fact. One of these designs is flying in aircraft all over the world, using only a resistor and capacitor hung on the processor to generate the clock signal. Rise and fall times on that one are on the order of hundreds of nanosecons, but there's no ringing or other noise on that input. The phase-2 output signal of my workbench computer is pretty slow because there are so many things hung on it, and I expect the maximum operation frequency could be a little higher than its 7MHz (with 4MHz and 6MHz parts) if I were to rebuild it and do the clock circuit better.
@GARTHWILSON
Thank you for the advice. Since I don't want to spend a ton of money on test equipment (at least initially), I want to keep things as simple as possible so I think I'll stick with the 65c02 for my first forays into homebrew computer design. I've spent over a decade working within the confines of the 6510's instruction set, so to me the 65c02 is already an upgrade - INC A here I come!
Thank you for the advice. Since I don't want to spend a ton of money on test equipment (at least initially), I want to keep things as simple as possible so I think I'll stick with the 65c02 for my first forays into homebrew computer design. I've spent over a decade working within the confines of the 6510's instruction set, so to me the 65c02 is already an upgrade - INC A here I come!
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blackadder
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On Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:05 pm, I wrote:
I didn't look at the details. Changing the last two to
viewtopic.php?p=895
viewtopic.php?t=195
does the job. My post at the bottom of the one ending in "p=895" has links to a bunch of applications notes on comparing and interfacing the different logic families, and potential problems you can run into with the faster logic families if your construction method is not suited for them.
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There's more discussion of the 5ns stuff at:
viewtopic.php?t=646
viewtopic.php?p=5655
viewtopic.php?t=786
although the last one has links to two other discussions that it's now saying don't exist:
http://www.6502.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=895
http://www.6502.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=195
so I'd like to find out from Mike what's happening-- what the numbers at the end mean, and if they change.
viewtopic.php?t=646
viewtopic.php?p=5655
viewtopic.php?t=786
although the last one has links to two other discussions that it's now saying don't exist:
http://www.6502.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=895
http://www.6502.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=195
so I'd like to find out from Mike what's happening-- what the numbers at the end mean, and if they change.
viewtopic.php?p=895
viewtopic.php?t=195
does the job. My post at the bottom of the one ending in "p=895" has links to a bunch of applications notes on comparing and interfacing the different logic families, and potential problems you can run into with the faster logic families if your construction method is not suited for them.
I put my clock circuit on a scope, and it looks pretty good. But I noticed it's only approx. 1.85 volts. When I read the data sheets for W65C02, it says that the clock input needs a minimum of 4.35 volts.
I would assume from this that my clock shouldn't run the W65C02, yet it does.
Am I missing something?
I would assume from this that my clock shouldn't run the W65C02, yet it does.
Am I missing something?
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Well, I double checked, and you were right. I had my setting wrong, and I'm actually reading about 4.3 volts at the peak.
I do have another question though. What causes the dip into negative when the signal falls to 0 volts, and then a kind of unstable squigile before it rises again. I assume this is some kind of imperfection in the circuit.
I do have another question though. What causes the dip into negative when the signal falls to 0 volts, and then a kind of unstable squigile before it rises again. I assume this is some kind of imperfection in the circuit.
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What causes the dip into negative when the signal falls to 0 volts, and then a kind of unstable squigile before it rises again.