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visual6502 Q: Lines crossing at 90°. Connected or not?

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:42 pm
by cerebrum
In the following schematic there are two 90° degrees crossings marked with a red circle:

Image

In both cases are the lines electrically connected or do they just cross over without making contact?

Btw, should I rather post this in the hardware subforum?

Re: Q: Lines crossing at 90°. Connected or not?

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:12 pm
by BigEd
There is a connection in both cases: that's the only intepretation which makes sense. Does Balazs generally use solid dots to indicate a connection, or does he generally use little jumps to indicate no connection? Those two conventions are reasonably standard. It's also possible that it's a mistake not to have drawn connection dots.

Cheers
Ed

Re: Q: Lines crossing at 90°. Connected or not?

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:54 pm
by cerebrum
He uses jumps to indicate no connection. So I will assume no jump implies a connection from now on.

Re: Q: Lines crossing at 90°. Connected or not?

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:43 am
by BigEd
Do beware that there are few cases where the visual6502 netlist differs from Balazs' schematic: as the visual6502 simulates correctly and the team were working from better photos of a deprocessed chip, we should assume that visual6502 is correct.
It's still an extremely useful (and impressive!) piece of work.
Cheers
Ed

Re: Q: Lines crossing at 90°. Connected or not?

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:12 am
by BigDumbDinosaur
Most of the electrical drafting programs I've used over the years indicate a connection with a dot at the point of intersection. The jump-over seemed to be more common back when most schematics were hand-drawn. I still use it in my sketches, mostly as force of habit.

Re: Q: Lines crossing at 90°. Connected or not?

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:31 am
by Arlet
I've also seen the convention where a T-junction always means a connection, and a 4-way intersection means no connection.

Re: Q: Lines crossing at 90°. Connected or not?

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:32 pm
by cerebrum
Let me give a bit more context to the image. The red rectangle marks the area where the smaller pic is taken from. It is from the top left part of the 6502 schematic where the data bus is read in(this corresponds to the bottom right part of the visual6502 simulation because the schematic is rotated 180° in relation to the simulation). The same circuit is repeated for every bit D0-D7:

Image

The complete schematic can be obtained here:
http://www.downloads.reactivemicro.com/ ... onics/CPU/

Re: Q: Lines crossing at 90°. Connected or not?

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:42 pm
by cerebrum
BigEd wrote:
Do beware that there are few cases where the visual6502 netlist differs from Balazs' schematic: as the visual6502 simulates correctly and the team were working from better photos of a deprocessed chip, we should assume that visual6502 is correct.
Yes Ed, I'm using the visual simulator as my primary source and use the schematic only as a guideline/help to understand the simulation.

Re: visual6502 Q: Lines crossing at 90°. Connected or not?

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:40 am
by GARTHWILSON
Quote:
Btw, should I rather post this in the hardware subforum?
This one is ok. Since there are so many regarding the visual6502 though (there's nothing wrong with that-- keep it up!), I edited the titles to start with "visual6502:" to make it easier to sort things mentally as one looks down the list of titles.

Re: visual6502 Q: Lines crossing at 90°. Connected or not?

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:21 am
by BigEd
Hmm, I'd say these questions are more about the (NMOS) 6502 implementation - visual6502 is just a means to an end. Balazs' schematics and Hanson's block diagram are other sources (as indeed are the original schematics, both Atari's and MOS', for those who have access to them.)

But I'm all in favour of clarity in thread titles.

Cheers
Ed

Re: visual6502 Q: Lines crossing at 90°. Connected or not?

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:47 pm
by cerebrum
The following is a storage unit from Balasz diagram and the intersecting wires in the red oval do not touch each other(confirmed by visual6502). So the diagram is not totally consistent or maybe it uses the convention that a 4-way intersection means no connection.

Image

Corresponding storage unit in visual6502:

http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/expert. ... &zoom=12.8

Re: visual6502 Q: Lines crossing at 90°. Connected or not?

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:50 pm
by BigEd
Mmm, not totally consistent is the best hypothesis.