Current 6502 Kits

[tmr4]

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:

In the case of a certain, well-known Youtube hawker of 6502 kits, support is minimal. That’s why we have people signing up here and posting, “I built Ben Eater’s 6502 kit and it isn’t working. Help!”

It's a business decision which doesn't seem to have affected his sales. Ben set up a reddit forum to provide support for his kits. Its membership is much larger than this forum, but it's mostly geared to the beginner level. It's clearly responsible for driving new membership on this site as beginners move on to more complex builds. That's how I found out about this forum.

I'm guessing Ben was active on reddit in the beginning to get things going and was able to pull back once its membership increased. He clarifies how to get support on his sales page

Quote:

For technical help assembling or troubleshooting the kits, please post a question at reddit.com/r/beneater since it’s difficult for me to answer these individually.

That forum is more suited for asking specific questions on his videos/kit.

[sburrow]

GARTHWILSON wrote:

I expect the greater market would be schools.  There however, there's a lot of competition, and the bean counters at the schools may go with what appears to be cheap and "high-tech" (whatever that means to non-technical people), regardless of whether or not it's the best way for the students to learn low-level computer basics.  They may not even know what a 6502 is.  Regardless, it would probably be important to have some very well written curriculum.  If I knew how to get into such a field of computer education, I would probably be in it right now.  I have imagined it for the last 36 years.  I would very much like to see a successful 6502 entry into that field, whether I'm involved or not.

I definitely agree.

From the beginning, these schools pay CRAZY amounts of money for "educating our children". Since the tax payers are the one's forkin' over the cash, why not indulge? In the school district that our college works with, each student gets a free Macbook. And after they are done, the student can either give it back or purchase it for like $200 or something. I *know* that is costing the school more than $200, because our college gives us teachers semi-ok PC laptops for like $2000 each (warranties and other trash included).

At the same time, I also know there is a big desire for 'hands on' STEM related stuff. The school admin drool over that kind of thing. Problem is, there is a bazillion (self made) regulations about safety, curriculum, content, cost, and other things that nobody will be able to breech unless you are an existing company that they trust. The reason we couldn't have something like that at the college level is we simply don't have the time to spare in the classroom, with the state and SACSCOC breathing down our necks. High schools don't care a hoot about time, but they set up phony restrictions because of their own pride.

I, although a teacher, am not a good curriculum writer. Garth, who has become a teacher, is an excellent curriculum writer. So, Garth, wanna partner together on this project? Your curriculum and expertise. My... boundless energy?

Well, there's my 2-cents. Thanks!

Chad

[BigEd]

Be great if we could avoid hot topics like funding policies. A moment's reflection can tell us that the simple truth we think we're stating is in fact something where opinions differ. There's no merit in exposing or exploring those differences on this forum.

I'm not sure how much freedom a school (or individual teacher) might have in how it buys kits to support lessons - I dare say it varies a lot. See perhaps also my nearby topic
6502 in education in the UK (today) - Educraft

[sburrow]

BigEd wrote:

Be great if we could avoid hot topics like funding policies. A moment's reflection can tell us that the simple truth we think we're stating is in fact something where opinions differ. There's no merit in exposing or exploring those differences on this forum.

What isn't a 'hot button' topic? I'm not talking politics here, I'm talking about schools wasting money and setting up self-imposed regulations. It does NOT take tens of thousands of dollars to be educated. It only takes that much to get a flimsy piece of paper saying that you sat in a classroom for years listening to somebody blabber on about something you probably aren't interested in. I feel I can personally say this because I myself am that blabber-er.

Never wanted to offend, but also didn't want to be silent. Thank you.

Chad

[drogon]

BigEd wrote:

I'm not sure how much freedom a school (or individual teacher) might have in how it buys kits to support lessons - I dare say it varies a lot. See perhaps also my nearby topic
6502 in education in the UK (today) - Educraft

I suspect that in theses elightened days; None at all. For the most part it's BBC Micro:bit in most schools with a small number going down the Raspberry Pi route...

Soldering is especially problematic...

-Gordon

[BigDumbDinosaur]

BigEd wrote:

Be great if we could avoid hot topics like funding policies.

Unfortunately, when it comes to public education, funding is always an issue and, at least in the USA, is inseparable from other aspects, such as writing curricula and assuring a “positive and safe experience” for students. No one, again in the USA, can get involved in any way with public education without having to deal with the unsavory politics that are involved, as well as the sometimes-petty tyrants who run things.

I’ll give you an example. A few years ago, I was approached by an official of the local school district about giving a talk or two to junior high students on having a career in information technology. It wasn’t the first time; I had done it once before in 2002. I again agreed to do it, at which time I was give an packet of forms I had to complete about my background, etc. That had not been required back in 2002, but I understood things had changed and now schools were cautious about who was to be allowed in a room full of children.

However, in that packet was paper work requiring me to be bonded and to agree to indemnify and release the school from any liability should a parent object in some way to my presence in a classroom, or what I had to say, or if I wore the wrong-color shirt. Furthermore, I had to submit an outline of about what I would be speaking.

I called the official and told her to find someone else.

[BigEd]

Yeah, quite predictable that we'd end up here. This is why I suggest some kinds of opinions are not good subjects to introduce in discussions here. We are united in our interest in the 6502. On matters of policy and values, we may well be divided. I suggest that it's in the interests of the forum generally that we try to avoid such divisions.

Otherwise, the future of the forum looks more and more like the worst of social media, where the discussions all spiral down the plughole of divisive political opinions.

[sburrow]

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:

I called the official and told her to find someone else.

I don't know if I'd should say "good!" or "oh no!". On the one hand, they deserve it. On the other hand, those children will not have BDD to encourage them into a meaningful career, or encourage them meaningfully into a career at all. Knowing you (wink wink), it was probably a good call to save your own skin from lawsuits against... odd colored shirts

BigEd wrote:

Yeah, quite predictable that we'd end up here. This is why I suggest some kinds of opinions are not good subjects to introduce in discussions here. We are united in our interest in the 6502. On matters of policy and values, we may well be divided. I suggest that it's in the interests of the forum generally that we try to avoid such divisions.

Otherwise, the future of the forum looks more and more like the worst of social media, where the discussions all spiral down the plughole of divisive political opinions.

I do not have any Facebook, Twitter, or any other social media accounts. So I do not know first hand what the 'worst' could be. I have heard stories of course, as similarly I hear from you now Ed. Anyhow, I *hope* that a stray comment or two will not bring the 6502 forum into chaos. In the future, I will try to not be as touchy about stray topics, because I don't want a lashing from those who have put much care and time here (as yourself). But I cannot promise that I can always be a good-boy. The rules are fairly arbitrary, and I'm only a human. Thank you for your patience with me.

Chad

[sburrow]

drogon wrote:

Soldering is especially problematic...

Gordon, why would soldering be problematic? I had a 'shop class' where we use high speed lathes to whittle wood down to a shape. We also used band saws and other wonderfully dangerous machines. Heck, we were doing all of this in a class in 8th grade, that's not even high school! I figure soldering is mild compared to table saws? Or is it for some reason besides it being 'dangerous'? [ I'm actually asking you seriously, no politics in mind here. ]

Thanks!

chad

[drogon]

sburrow wrote:

drogon wrote:

Soldering is especially problematic...

Gordon, why would soldering be problematic? I had a 'shop class' where we use high speed lathes to whittle wood down to a shape. We also used band saws and other wonderfully dangerous machines. Heck, we were doing all of this in a class in 8th grade, that's not even high school! I figure soldering is mild compared to table saws? Or is it for some reason besides it being 'dangerous'? [ I'm actually asking you seriously, no politics in mind here. ]

Thanks!

chad

And 45+ years ago I was using lathes, mills, brazing, welding, etc ... but no soldering then either.

My understanding (from chatting to some teachers a couple of years back) is that it's just not needed. So it's not problematic because it's not part of the "National Curriculum".

Schools teach physics perfectly well without soldering and since then (45+ years ago) electronics kits which were springs and modules have moved on a bit - breadboards are now used occasionally.

Some schools do have an "enrichment" week (sometimes an hour a week over a period of time) where they do additional things not part of the national curriculum, so they may do some then, but I got the impression it was just too hard to setup an adequately ventilated lab of hot soldering irons for the kids to use.

Even today metal work (or resistant materials technology, I think it was called at one point) is vanishing from schools - most of my old teacher friends have retired now and don't care (due to "politics") but I think there are moves to bring it back - I did see some lathes, etc. in a school in Plymouth (Devon, UK), a few years back when I as doing some unpaid teaching work there (STEMnet ambassador).

I have seen some people offering soldering for kids at some of the Raspberry Pi "jams" a few years back, and I think some of the (UK) computer museums do special days, but I've not been to a Pi event for 4 years now.

We didn't solder stuff when I went to school - what we had was some plug together electronics things - components mounted on modules that you could trivially link. (I also had some home electronics kits like that too) I made a 10-stage divider with lamps at each stage to make a 10-bit binary counter.... But all those years ago we never thought to take photos of things as much as we do today!

On kits and so on ... I have a non-6502 project that I've been thinking of offering as a kit for some time - the down-side is 320 solder joints. I can't sell them ready-made due to the paperwork required if I want to stay legal (CE testing, etc.) and my tentative queries with those who may be interested in the concept have come up blank - purely due to the amount of soldering required. The 2nd down-side is support.

-Gordon

[richardc64]

Ah... I can remember when this was a godsend for electronics work:

supplanting this:

[GARTHWILSON]

Unfortunately, getting 6502 kits and curriculum into schools, at least in the US, requires dealing with the politics.  There's no way around it in most situations, so we might as well discuss it and see if we can come up with something that works.  The few who would be offended are probably the ones who should be, for various reasons; but they're not the ones reading this forum.  Too many problems go unsolved because we're too concerned about "offending" someone.  We can take reasonable care, and then let the chips fall where they may.

richardc64, my first soldering iron was not much different from the one n your second picture.  It was either 160W or 250W.  I can't remember which.  I asked my dad to get me a soldering iron, and neither one of use really knew anything about it, and I think he probably went to a hardware store for it.  We were in another country.  Not knowing any better, I used the lower point of the ½" chisel tip for electronic parts like ½W and ¼W resistors and small electrolytic capacitors and germanium transistors.

[barnacle]

I feel the critical point was mentioned upthread: we care about the 6502. Mostly, I suspect because it reminds of early investigations in computers - and guess what, you found the computer adverts, particularly for the single board computers, in the hobby electronics magazines. One reason being, I suspect, that nobody had yet thought of a practical application for a computer smaller than 'mini' in the office environment.

However, I doubt that many outside this self-selecting group have the same attachment to the 6502. There are those who run emulators - or original hardware - to play 6502 games from the eighties; there are those who use the 8085 or z80 to run CP/M. But there are I suspect very few who use 6502 in current hardware for practical tasks (yes, I can see Garth waving!). The simple fact is that for pretty much any specific task, a microcontroller with built in peripherals as well as flash and ram can far outperform the 6502 in both execution speed and usually power consumption. For me, the challenge is 'how can I perform task x with a 6502' not 'how can I best perform this task' - that's the day job and trust me the 6502 doesn't get a look in.

Much as I like the challenge of the 6502, I'm not convinced it's the best device to have in a classroom. Simple though it is, it's still too complex to teach to someone who is not yet convinced that something like that is what he wants to do... and it's not complex enough to do a fraction of the things something like a Raspberry Pi can do.

Neil

[GARTHWILSON]

A problem I see with the microcontrollers however is that the student will not learn about many things like address decoding, buses, and timings.  Too often the curriculum that goes with microcontrollers will also use a high-level language, not assembly, let alone starting with hand assembly so the student learns the lowest levels and then builds up from there, knowledge upon knowledge.  I have to ask again where tomorrow's engineers will come from.  In too many cases, the student learns absolutely nothing about what goes on under the hood and under the GUI and layers of software that are there supposedly to make it fun by shielding them from the supposedly boring stuff which is the real computer engineering.

I would add that the performance is irrelevant in the first semesters of such education where they're just blinking an LED, feeding an intelligent character LCD, reading a temperature, interfacing to I²C devices, monitoring optical sensors, scanning a keypad, etc.; so a 500MHz 32-bit microcontroller has no advantage over the 6502.

[drogon]

GARTHWILSON wrote:

I would add that the performance is irrelevant in the first semesters of such education where they're just blinking an LED, feeding an intelligent character LCD, reading a temperature, interfacing to I²C devices, monitoring optical sensors, scanning a keypad, etc.; so a 500MHz 32-bit microcontroller has no advantage over the 6502.

Other than a 500Mhz microcontroller is credit card sized with on-board LEDs and GPIO, costs a few $ and can be directly plugged into the USB port of a PC running MS Windows and code developed and sent to it in a block language (e.g. Scratch) and sent to it all from a web interface, then the following day Python.

You might want to take a look at the BBC Micro:Bit. This has nothing to do with the Raspberry Pi but is the system that UK schools all use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Bit

Now... The 65x134 board might seem like a candidate, but who is going to develop the child friendly front-end including high level language interfaces?

Also worth noting the difference between Schools in the UK and US - UK Schools are 7 years from age 4 through about 11, (Primary School) then typically 4 or up to 6 years in secondary (Sometimes called "High" school now) - then it's university.

Computing is introduced in primary school via Scratch - either run directly on an MS Windows PC or into a Micro:Bit. Very few schools (typically some independents) use the Raspberry Pi. Trying to put a 6502 system into a UK school is a lost cause.

This is what a computer kit looks like:

https://kitronik.co.uk/collections/robo ... ccessories


-Gordon