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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:06 pm 
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Paganini wrote:
sburrow wrote:
Paganini wrote:
It wouldn't run at 12.6MHz, but it did fine at 8MHz.


I personally don't understand why running so fast is important, but if you like it then do it!


Well... setting speed records isn't a priority of mine. I'm already substantially faster than any equivalent retro micro.

Well, not so quick ;-)
My MicroPET runs at 12.5MHz too :-)

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Still, I don't see any reason to go slower than I have to. If it will run at 6MHz, why not run at 6MHz? (Or 12 for the WDC chip. After all, it's specced for 14MHz.)

Exactly!

Congratulations to your work!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:41 am 
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Sorry Andre! I meant to refer to historical systems, not contemporary ones. I know some of the guys here have gotten their 6502s to break 20MHz, which amazes me. 12.6 MHz is pretty fast compared to 2-4MHz though! :D

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:50 pm 
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No worries, no offense taken. See the smiling smiley ☺️
Great job you're doing!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:26 pm 
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sburrow wrote:
but I don't understand (personally) the "need for speed".

It depends on what you want to do. I still use my 1980's HP-41cx calculator/computer regularly, even though it is super slow with its bit-serial data bus and 375kHz clock rate (although it has 56-bit processor registers).  The programs I run on it nowadays are never more than a few hundred bytes, and are usually quite a bit less, for doing some repetitive calculations where, in spite of the slow execution speed, the time to write and test the program might somewhat dwarf the time spent running it to get the information I need.  [1]

For my workbench computers, I find that a 25% or even 50% increase in speed may hardly be noticeable.  Doubling the speed is definitely substantial, but not really earth-shaking.  There's generally no threshold where the speed is enough and that just below that is not; it's more like that the faster it is, the more possibilities and freedom it opens up for doing things that rely on timing deadlines in the microseconds, something that will be more a factor on the workbench than it would be in human-I/O-intensive situations where waiting a little longer might be a little boring but does not hurt the function.

Decades ago, I ran calculator programs on my earlier TI-59 that were basically like differential equations done by numerical methods, and let them run all night or even 24 hours.  It was a situation where just adding time was a viable option to get what I otherwise couldn't.  Years later, I compared the speed of the TI-59 calculator, HP-15c, HP-41, HP-71, and HP-50g inverting an 8x8 real matrix.  IIRC, with the TI-59, I think I gave up and turned it off after 20 minutes.  The HP-15c took 40 seconds, The HP-41 with Advantage module took 20 seconds, the HP-71 with math module took 3.5 seconds, and the HP-50g had no visible delay.  All of them were way better than doing it by hand.


[1] You might wonder why anyone would still use a 1980's slow calculator when PC software is millions of times as fast.  In addition to the program-writing versus running comparison above, one reason is familiarity.  Another is stability.  Some of the programs I use most have been in my HP-41cx continuously, never re-loading, for something like 30 years.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:27 pm 
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fachat wrote:
No worries, no offense taken. See the smiling smiley ☺️
Great job you're doing!


Thanks! :D

Here's a little update! Still procrastinating from building VGA circuits (hehe) but I thought it might be useful to have keyboard input in case I want to do some real-time debugging with a monitor. So, I stole Blue April's keyboard interface card and rigged up a breadboard for it:

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It actually runs at 12.6MHz, but it's a little glitchy. Just a little glitchy. They're kind of funny glitches. Almost all the keys work, except M. When I push M I get a space instead. Just M, and always just a space instead. Weird. One hypothesis I have is that the keyboard card uses some AHCT logic (Blue April uses AHCT, and I didn't have any HC595s to replace them with), so maybe the bit pattern for 'M' just happens to generate line noise that the AHCT shift registers object to. I didn't investigate too hard. Everything works fine at 6.3MHz and I will have to slow everything down again when I hook up the CRTC anyway; it's a much slower part. So... :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:58 am 
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Turn up the voltage slightly up to 5.3V and see if it is more stable. 12.6MHz is 1/2 of 25.175MHz; it is nice to keep the design synchronous with one clock driving everything (except serial in this case--hard to make standard serial clock with 25.175MHz source).
Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:39 pm 
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plasmo wrote:
Turn up the voltage slightly up to 5.3V and see if it is more stable. 12.6MHz is 1/2 of 25.175MHz; it is nice to keep the design synchronous with one clock driving everything (except serial in this case--hard to make standard serial clock with 25.175MHz source).


Yep! I don't think I mentioned it, but that flying orange wire is the clock line; I have 12.6, 6.3, 3.14, and 1.6 MHz available off of a 74HC1633. That flying wire could also be contributing to the glitch. I have some nicer shorter jumpers coming, but they're taking forever to get here!

My voltage wall wart puts out around 5.1 volts. I don't have a nice adjustable bench supply, but I do have some spare ATX power supplies laying around. I've seen some videos where people convert them into bench supplies. I haven't quite got up the nerve to do it though; it's been a long time (read: decades) since I've done anything near the mains...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:49 pm 
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Paganini wrote:
plasmo wrote:
Turn up the voltage slightly up to 5.3V and see if it is more stable.

My voltage wall wart puts out around 5.1 volts.

Does it put out 5.1 under load though? Wall-warts aren’t noted for their great regulation.

Quote:
I don't have a nice adjustable bench supply, but I do have some spare ATX power supplies laying around.

I use an old ATX power supply to run my POC units. No internal work is needed for the purpose, only a toggle switch patched on to the power “pilot” lead and ground to turn it on and off.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:36 pm 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Does it put out 5.1 under load though? Wall-warts aren’t noted for their great regulation.


It's 5.15 where it comes onto the board. It drops to 4.94 across the A/K of the LCD backlight, which is the furthest point from the supply. All the IC sockets have at least 5 volts across their power pins.

I think it's having more trouble keeping up with the current demands; the Model-M is a power hog! If I understand how to use my meter properly (which is not necessarily a given) the SBC itself draws about 9 µA. When I plug in the LCD it jumps up to about 12 µA. The backlight for the LCD jumps to ~440µA!

With the Modle-M plugged in, it draws 133 MILLI-AMPS

Edit: I dunno, the wall wart is rated for 2A; maybe the LCD is just not a very good one... it was pretty inexpensive!

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:08 pm 
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Paganini wrote:
Looking back from my lofty vantage point of 3 months in the future, I wonder why I was pulling anything off the stack in the first place. Even without BIT, all I had to do was LDA PORTA, BMI BUSY.


Looking back from quite a but further into the future than 3 months (in case I forget again), the reason I was pulling anything off the stack is that the LCD is in 4 bit mode where you have to do everything twice. The info (busy flag) I needed was in the first nibble, but I had to collect the second nibble before testing it, or the LCD would freak out. This is how I still do it!

Code:
_LCD_busy:
LCD_busy:
    jsr     _LCD_read   ; get high order nibble
    pha
    jsr     _LCD_read   ; get low order nibble - we don't need it, but the LCD sends it
    pla
    bmi     LCD_busy    ; no CMPs or BITs or any such nonsense!
    rts   ; _LCD_busy

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:44 am 
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Over in the kits thread I mentioned I had recently ordered some ICs from UTSource. They arrived today. I am happy with them! Although sold as "used," I would be hard pressed to tell them from new, if it weren't for a couple of slightly misaligned pins. They are clean and bright and as far as I can tell unsanded / restenciled. I got a couple of 4 MHz CMD VIAs, which are nice, but the main reason for this little update is the 70ns EEPROM. I finally swapped out my poor long suffering overworked 150nz EEPROM. With the faster ROM, Peanutbutter-1 is running glitch free at 12.6MHz (with WDC parts). :D

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:03 am 
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That just show you how conservative memory timings are, by the book, 12.5MHz 6502 requires 40nS access time even if you have zero delay in decoding and your clock is perfectly 50-50% symmetrical. So imagine if you have 45nS W27C512-45 flash, then you can easily run into low 20's MHz. Clock is seldom 50-50, so if you picked the long side of 45-55% clock, you can squeeze in even more MHz.
Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:43 am 
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Paganini wrote:
With the faster ROM, Peanutbutter-1 is running glitch free at 12.6MHz (with WDC parts). :D


WOW that's super fast! Great job on managing that! Seems like you have a pretty solid setup to make that happen.

Did you every happen to post schematics? Can't remember.

Is PB-1 the computer you are using with PAGMON?

Great job! I'm super impressed!

Chad


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:05 am 
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sburrow wrote:
Did you every happen to post schematics? Can't remember.
You know, I guess I didn't! I had in mind that I did, but looking back I only see a couple of sketches of the glue logic. It's a pretty simple design though; There's a 25.125MHz oscillator feeding a 74HC163 prescaler. There's a 74HC688 8-way comparator that places a 128byte I/O window in memory. This is based on Mike McLaren's moveable and resizable decoding scheme, but I was running low on board space so mine is just relocatable, not resizable. :) There's a 74AHC138 to generate the I/O chip selects and a 74AHC139 to do RAM and ROM selects and PHI2 qualify memory writes. There's a 74HC04 for inverting A15, but I'm only using one inverter, so I could replace it with a 74HC00 if I needed some NANDs for some reason. There's also one empty IC socket that is destined to hold a 3-way NAND (HC11, I think) that I will need to generate the SHIFT/LOAD signal for my shift register when I get back to working on the VGA circuit. Right now I'm just using that empty socket as a handy way to get +5V/GND for my I/O devices and probes. :)

The big chips are a 65C02 (jumper configurable for WDC or non-WDC), one 65C22, a 28-pin ZIF for EEPROM (jumper configurable for 27c256 or 28c256), and a narrow 28-pin SRAM (a nice fast one at 12ns).

Quote:
Is PB-1 the computer you are using with PAGMON?


Yes, although I should be able to move it to Blue April with minimal fuss. The idea of PB-1 is to give me something that's easier to expand / reconfigure / interface with for the VGA terminal without having to have the whole thing on breadboards. When I got to the point of adding the CRT controller, dual-port RAM, processor, SRAM, ROM, plus VGA output stage, etc., it was just too big for breadboards. At least, for my breadboards. No doubt Radical Brad could have done it. :)

Blue April is made out of RC6502 cards. You would think that a backplane design would make it easy to add / tinker with stuff (I thought that!) but the truth is that it's kind of tricky because everything is broken out on to separate PCBs. It's not so easy to, for example, add a second VIA. The one on the "project board" is jumpered so that it's either on or off the IRQ line, and a second VIA would have to come in on its own card, which means there's no way to AND their IRQ lines together before they go on the bus. I'd have to solder a diode across the jumper, which is less than ideal.

Since the CRTC is controlled by software, I thought it might be useful to have a real machine monitor so I can send commands to it without having to keep reprogramming the EEPROM. That's been kind of lurking in the background for a while, and since I was more or less laid up last week it seemed like a good time to work on getting a really useable version of PAGIMON. At that point (two weeks ago or so) all it could do was scan through memory and jump to an address - no editing features. It's quite a bit more useful now, although I think the code could use some improving. I should get the last few installments out in the next couple of days.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:53 am 
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One Year Retrospective

It's almost exactly one year ago that I started building Blue April! Just under two weeks from now will be exactly one year from the first post I made in this project space thread. To celebrate, I thought I would make a little tour video to show the current state of things. A while ago Chad had asked for a video demonstration of Pagimon, and this seemed like a good opportunity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJkA8VBFPDg

I made this with my phone, so I'm afraid the camera work is not very good. Sorry!

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