Current 6502 Kits

[Paganini]

That's great Bill! I've looked at those kits lots of times, but always chickened out from buying one in fear that the parts would just be dead lumps of IC-shaped plastic.

[plasmo]

Excellent! I love the monthly special. So anyone has experience with that particular kit? My experiences with ebay are generally favorable except a few specific problem areas such as W65C02 (fake label, won’t work beyond 2Mhz) and CPLD (JTAG locked).

To eliminate flash programmer, maybe a design that can reprogram AT28C256. The design should have expansion port or prototype area, and maybe collection of software tools such as GPascal, DOS/65. This way we can have a cheap kit that newbie can build and more experienced members can help debugging.
Bill

[Andre]

Hi All,

I only recently discovered this topic.

I've not had much time over the last 9 months to work on my 6502 project after starting a new job.
Here is an update and another possible kit,

You can see my introduction and some back ground on the project here.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1935&p=87476&hilit= ... ane#p87476

I have attached a more recent picture of the main board and the SD card plug-in card. SPI bus is driven by CPLD.
I also have a TMS9918A card which I recently got working. (The first batch of TMS9918A chips were duds....sound familiar)
and a prototyping card.

I have thought about converting this to a kit, probably supplied with only programmed CPLDS, AY sound chips and AVR keyboard decoder.
The rest is all available from Mouser. I would not recommend using old slower parts.

I have added a video (zipped) to show the VGA graphics. I started a Load Runner clone...from scratch, using CC65.

If anybody is interested I have 4 more assembled, but without IC's. I could complete them.
I don't think it would take much to get them assembled in China if enough people are interested.
I may request a quote for interest.

I was thinking about starting a retro (6502) group at my local library.
I have been collecting (AU$10-20) VGA monitors to use with these boards.
I have no idea if I would get any interest.

I wish I had more time to work on the project.
I don't know how some people have the time for the project and YouTube videos.
Do they not have families, kids, wives, jobs...?

If anybody wants to know more please feel free to ask.

Andre

[barnacle]

Andre wrote:

Do they not have families, kids, wives, jobs...?
Andre

Possibly not any more...

Neil

[GARTHWILSON]

Andre wrote:

I was thinking about starting a retro (6502) group at my local library.

I've never heard of such a thing in this century; but if you have an idea of how to make it work, and have some success, I'm sure it would be an inspiration to others here.  I imagine the bulk of the communication between members would still be by internet, but the (monthly?) in-person gatherings for show & tell and learning would be great.

Quote:

I wish I had more time to work on the project.
I don't know how some people have the time for the project and YouTube videos.
Do they not have families, kids, wives, jobs...?

That might be partly why so many here are older.  (There are other reasons too of course.)  It's also why projects often take many years, not necessarily that people work on the same project continually for that long, but there are long periods where the project collects dust until they're able to get back to it.

[BigEd]

Andre wrote:

I have attached a more recent picture of the main board and the SD card plug-in card. SPI bus is driven by CPLD.

That looks very nice indeed!

[sburrow]

Andre wrote:

I wish I had more time to work on the project.
I don't know how some people have the time for the project and YouTube videos.
Do they not have families, kids, wives, jobs...?

I have a full-time teaching job, a wife and 3 very young kids (4yo, 2yo, and 6mo), active at the church, create video lectures at the house, and play video games every other day. Weekdays I don't get much time, but Friday and Saturday mornings I get many hours of project time when everyone else is sleeping. If you don't have enough time, step one is to sleep less I am *extremely* productive from 4am to 8am in the morning, without coffee. Then I cook spam and eggs and slice my wife's sourdough cinnamon bread for my (now) awake family members. I always take my 6502 before breakfast

Chad

[Andre]

Hi Chad,

You sound very organized.
You are right. There is time from 04:00 to 08:00 on weekends.
Not sure I would want to get up at 04:00, but 05:00 or 06:00 to 08:00 would provide a few extra hours.

In terms of kits, is there anything specific that you are looking for?
Any particular features?
Cost?
Assembled or kit?

What would be your "dream kit"?

Regards
Andre

[sburrow]

Andre wrote:

Hi Chad,

You sound very organized.

Nope, I hate scheduling myself. I just tend to sleep less and work more.

Quote:

In terms of kits, is there anything specific that you are looking for?
Any particular features?
Cost?
Assembled or kit?
What would be your "dream kit"?

I think anyone here could answer that. But as others mentioned earlier, a lot of us here are past the 'kit' stages, and designing our own. I too feel like my Acolyte board could be a kit, and I have been designing it in hope of just that.

- No new-old stock chips, everything must be easily obtained from Mouser or Digikey in mass quantity.
- Chip flexibility as much as possible, especially with RAM and ROM chips. Multiple types/sizes can be plugged into the same socket and will function exactly the same.
- No CPLD's and FPGA's, mainly because I cannot find a good way to program current ones from Linux (as I refuse to use Windows long-term).
- I/O devices must also be easy to obtain. I have picked PS/2 Keyboards and VGA monitors which are both easy to interface and easy to obtain from Amazon, Walmart, and Newegg.
- Must be useful and can play games, so using *only* a 16x2 LCD would not be enough in the whole scheme of things.
- Must be self-reliant, no need to use with a modern PC, serial connections, or bootstrapping, everything needed is on the ROM. Having serial connection or other means of communicating would be merely a bonus.
- Power supply comes from USB wall charger, which everyone and their grandma has to charge their phones.
- Total cost under $100, but I think I managed to get mine to $75 comfortably by not using a 6522 VIA on the main-board.
- Solder-it-yourself with helpful user guide which also instructs on how both the hardware and software work. Educational in nature. I think the guide for the Dodo is an excellent model of user-friendliness mixed with education!

I have been trying to model it after Dave Murray's (8-Bit Guy) video "My Dream Computer Part 1" requirements. He went a different route with the X16 long ago, but I have tried to stick with his plan as much as possible. I also believe that Wozniak's 'chip saving' strategies were wonderful, and I too try all I can to reduce chip count even though the price won't change but $0.60 in the end.

Here is a link to my github:

https://github.com/stevenchadburrow

I've been updating it recently with the board's new design and updated the code when appropriate.

And you? Could I ask you the same question Andre?

Thanks!

Chad

[plasmo]

The most successful of "New Retro" computer is RC2014. Conceived in 2014, it became a kit product around 2016, 4000 units were sold to date. The pricing is around $150-$250, they are offered strictly as kits shipped from UK. RC2014 has no video/keyboard, however they can be purchased as add-on; it is mostly through-hole DIP with TTL glue logic; it is relatively slow with 7.37MHz Z80 CPU; it runs CP/M operating system; and it is a backplane system with half dozen boards plug in.

Because RC2014 is an early "New Retro" computer, it is able to command very high price. The later "New Retro" as examplified by Steve Cousins' RC2014-compatible boards are 1/2 to 1/3 of RC2014 price--as low as $40 for very primitive design to $100 for nicely done RC2014 clone. Video/keyboard capability is still mostly out of reach for RC2014 and compatibles.

There are other Z80 homebrew unrelated to RC2014 such as Z80-MBC2, Zeta2 that are somewhat popular and cost generally around $75-$100 as kit.

Having keyboard/video and 6502 product line separate you from fairly crowded Z80 world, but the downside is you'll need to establish a brand new product line. Kits + new product line mean significant on-line supports that may take more time than you have. Good luck!
Bill

[BigDumbDinosaur]

sburrow wrote:

- Power supply comes from USB wall charger, which everyone and their grandma has to charge their phones.

Probably not a good requirement. Many of those chargers have regulation problems with any significant load. They are designed to charge a battery, which lessens the requirement for good regulation and noise-free output.

Also, the maximum output per USB spec would be 500 mA, which sounds like a lot until you add more to the basic system. Running any power supply near its maximum output rating is never a good idea. Also, running your system through the thin wiring of a USB connector inserts some resistance into a circuit that should have as close to zero resistance as possible.

[Alarm Siren]

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:

Also, the maximum output per USB spec would be 500 mA, which sounds like a lot until you add more to the basic system. Running any power supply near its maximum output rating is never a good idea. Also, running your system through the thin wiring of a USB connector inserts some resistance into a circuit that should have as close to zero resistance as possible.

If refering to USB2/1, yes, the maximum is absolutely 500mA but, even more strictly speaking, it should only be 100mA unless the powered device negotiates for more. Even more strictly speaking you're not supposed to draw more than 2.5mA in the event that the host device puts the powered device into Suspend mode, which you can't know unless you're actively communicating on the USB bus. USB1/2 was never really designed to charge or power random widgets, and these design protocol technicalities confirm that - but they are also widely ignored with no ill-effects in practice, especially when its just a wall-adapter anyway which are usually pretty dumb (i.e. they can't negotiate for more power even if you wanted to try!)

With the advent of USB3 & USB-C, things get even trickier with various methods of power negotiation (both active and passive). However one thing that is good is if you're using a USB-C power source, they are required to be able to provide at least 1.5A. On a USB-C power sink you can look at the CCx pins - if one of them is above 0.7V, you're good for 1.5A; if its above 1.31V you're good for 3A.

(I've been doing a lot of research into 'correct' USB power handling lately)

[cbmeeks]

Hope this isn't too OT but someone mentioned that kits aren't the target audience for the people on this forum. And that makes sense. I think the vast majority of 6502 users are interested in buying a simple computer and just programming it. Look at the popularity of the Pico-8. I think there is really a nice market for a "ready-made" 6502 computer that is cheap and somewhat powerful.

This gap is being filled on the Z80 side. Which is unfortunate for 6502 fans like myself. For example, the Argon Lite is really a capable machine that is (supposedly) about $50 or so. Very modern design with only a few chips. And very fast. The creator brags that it's the fastest 8-bit computer ever made. ;-/

I wished we had something similar for the 6502. Can you imagine a modern 6502 running at the same 18MHz the Argon runs at? It would wipe that smile off the creator's face. LOL

[BigEd]

(I think the forum is visited by people with all sorts of interests - they might not be very vocal, but they are there. So all topics are fair here, I think, kits included, ready-built offerings, bare PCBs and so on.)

[BigDumbDinosaur]

cbmeeks wrote:

Hope this isn't too OT but someone mentioned that kits aren't the target audience for the people on this forum...I think there is really a nice market for a "ready-made" 6502 computer that is cheap and somewhat powerful.

That has been something that has come up around here again and again. As always, the idea ultimately collapses from “design-by-committee” disease. I know that the idea goes back some 20 years and other than Daryl’s SBC series, has not come to fruition.

I too have doubts that a kit is the way to go. My observation has been that a 6502 enthusiast either scratch-builds something and writes the software to run it, or buys something ready-made with a basic operating environment in ROM—a turnkey system, as it were. Either way, there’s the question of mass storage—a feature that is eventually needed, suitable I/O, a user interface, an easy-to-use development language, etc.

Unlike the Z80 and its ilk, the 6502 spectrum is so wide it’s difficult to settle on a single design that everyone will like.