Chad
Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
floobydust wrote:
Also, keep in mind that triggering the MCP130 with a momentary switch on the output will NOT reset the internal delay, as the device is not designed to be used in such a circuit. The DS1813 is designed to be used with a manual trigger and will reset it's time delay when the momentary switch is closed.
plasmo wrote:
Another approach is put a 220 ohm resistor between 5V and MCP130’s VCC terminal and connect reset button to MCP130’s VCC terminal. Reset button will drop MCP130 voltage and trigger the power-on reset pulse. MCP130 is 50 cents vs $3 DS1813, it is worth the extra resistor if you really want a clean reset every time. I don’t bother with that, personally.
Chad
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Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
sburrow wrote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
sburrow wrote:
To keep this short: Don't rely on the resistor+capacitor reset circuit during power-up.
Without.
x86? We ain't got no x86. We don't NEED no stinking x86!
Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Without.
And it failed on power-up. Reset button still works fine of course. I tried a few times and it was just not working. Oh well! If it's sensitive as to need a 3.3K vs a 1K or a 10K, then I think I'm happy just using the MCP130. I'm keeping the 10K pull-up with the MCP130 just like last time.
Thanks!
Chad
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Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
sburrow wrote:
So, I tried that this morning. I replace the 10K pull-up with a 1K pull-up, just like Ben Eater. I then put the 0.1uF cap back in, just like Ben Eater. And then I removed the MCP130 from the circuit, just like Ben Eater...And it failed on power-up.
No surprise there.
The time-constant of the 0.1µF cap and 1K resistor is only 100µs, much too short for a power-on situation. My experience with can oscillators is most take several 10s of milliseconds to stabilize following power on. Roll-your-own oscillators using a crystal and associated components probably take as long, or longer than a can oscillator. WDC states in the data sheet that reset must stay low for a minimum of two full Ø2 cycles, which means the oscillator must be stable before reset is released. I dunno about the 65C02, but I can tell you that the 65C816 will not come out of reset if that two-cycle minimum is not satisfied.
Devices such as the MCP130 and DS1813 typically hold reset down for 150-250 milliseconds to assure VCC stabilizes and other circuit elements, mainly clock generation, are up-and-running before the MPU is allowed to start. Arranging the Ben Eater reset circuit so it will produce a 250 millisecond delay on power-up, but with using a more reasonable 3.3K resistor, would require a timing capacitor of approximately 70µF. That assumes the MPU sees the low-to-high transition of reset as valid around 3 volts. Resistance in series with the reset push button would be de rigueur to limit the capacitor discharge current to a safe level when manually resetting the machine.
That said, the trouble with doing reset Ben Eater-style is it will not cleanly reset any device whose input isn't Schmitt-triggered. And, of course, an inverter is needed to handled devices that use an Intel-style reset, e.g., the 28L92 DUART is such a device when operated in x86 mode. So you’re back to using some silicon in the reset circuit.
Incidentally, the Microchip MCP100 series has a totem-pole output, so no pullup resistor is needed on the reset line. The MPC100’s quiescent current draw is in the microamp range. Therefore, connecting the MCP100 to VCC through a 100 ohm resistor and connecting the VCC pin on the MCP100 to a grounded push button is a practical arrangement. The resulting circuit will give both manual and “automatic” resets without exposing the push button to significant current (50mA worst-case with the button continuously held down).
x86? We ain't got no x86. We don't NEED no stinking x86!
Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
No surprise there.
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
The time-constant of the 0.1µF cap and 1K resistor is only 100µs, much too short for a power-on situation. My experience with can oscillators is most take several 10s of milliseconds to stabilize following power on. Roll-your-own oscillators using a crystal and associated components probably take as long, or longer than a can oscillator. WDC states in the data sheet that reset must stay low for a minimum of two full Ø2 cycles, which means the oscillator must be stable before reset is released. I dunno about the 65C02, but I can tell you that the 65C816 will not come out of reset if that two-cycle minimum is not satisfied.
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Arranging the Ben Eater reset circuit so it will produce a 250 millisecond delay on power-up, but with using a more reasonable 3.3K resistor, would require a timing capacitor of approximately 70µF. That assumes the MPU sees the low-to-high transition of reset as valid around 3 volts. Resistance in series with the reset push button would be de rigueur to limit the capacitor discharge current to a safe level when manually resetting the machine.
Well, good info here, I'm learning. And I've learned that the MCP130xxxD is perfectly fine for my needs. It's a 'drop in replacement' for the DS1813 (with my particular board's setup) yet cheaper. Thank you BDD, I appreciate learning from you.
Chad
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Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
sburrow wrote:
100us = 100,000ns, yes? OH, but you are saying during power-on it would take longer than that just to get power all over the board, etc. Ah ok.
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?
Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
GARTHWILSON wrote:
But perhaps more than that, it takes the crystal in the crystal oscillator time to get to vibrating. Its selectivity is extremely sharp, such that any change in a crystal's resonating amplitude, including what it takes to get it resonating, is resisted, as that requires frequencies outside what it wants to vibrate at. For example, I just looked up the data sheet of a 12MHz can oscillator on Mouser, stock number 520-TCH1200-X, and it says it may take up to 10ms for its output to get going.
Thank you!
Chad
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Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
sburrow wrote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
No surprise there.
Well, it is possible...with the right parts.
Quote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
The time-constant of the 0.1µF cap and 1K resistor is only 100µs, much too short for a power-on situation....
To echo what Garth noted (and I noted some posts ago), crystal-controlled oscillators do not instantly start oscillating when power is applied. And once they do start, their output “jumps around” a bit before the crystal is vibrating at the right frequency (also, the frequency will drift a tiny bit as the oscillator’s internal temperature rises). Power supplies do not instantly go to full output the moment mains power is applied—the output monotonically rises at a rate that is not entirely predictable.
So you’ve got the combination of the power supply’s turn-on time added to the time required for the oscillator to start and stabilize. That's why devices such as the DS1813 and MCP1xx are voltage-sensitive and hold reset down for several hundred milliseconds.
Quote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Arranging the Ben Eater reset circuit so it will produce a 250 millisecond delay on power-up, but with using a more reasonable 3.3K resistor, would require a timing capacitor of approximately 70µF...
Whatever produces a clean reset of the required minimum duration is fine. As long as you understand that the Ben Eater circuit will not produce a clean reset due to lack of contact debouncing, there is no reason to not use it. As is often the case with electronics (and life in general), simple solutions aren't always good solutions.
x86? We ain't got no x86. We don't NEED no stinking x86!
Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
Anyway, an alternative. Comments are full welcome 
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Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
agsb wrote:
Anyway, an alternative. Comments are full welcome 
Next, there's no need for a pull-up resistor on the output of a 74HC part. 74HC pulls up just as hard as down, and will bring the output all the way to 5V if the load is light.
See Fairchild's ap. note on HCMOS crystal oscillators at https://web.archive.org/web/20180311021 ... AN-340.pdf .
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?
- BigDumbDinosaur
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Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
agsb wrote:
Anyway, an alternative. Comments are full welcome 
I can't read your schematic. Can you repost in monochrome?
x86? We ain't got no x86. We don't NEED no stinking x86!
Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
In the UK and Europe, an informal convention has arisen that uses R, k, M as decimal markers for resistor values; p, n, U as markers for capacitor values, and U, m, H as markers for inductor values.
Thus: 4k7 = 4.7 kOhms; 1p8 = 1.8 pF, 10M = 10 MOhms, 470U = 470 uF, 0R1 = 0.1 Ohms and so on. One difference between UK and US systems is that for a long time US values were given as powers of six - 1000pF - while UK values have for many years been powers of three - 1nF for the same part.
On passive component order codes, you often see capacitance values marked using R as a decimal place - 4R76 might be a 47 uF, 1R8 might 1.8 pF. However, there are at least two standards for marking surface mount resistors; and SM capacitors are *never* marked unless they're tantalum or aluminium electrolytics.
And if you fancy a programming challenge, try something which can unambiguously derive the manufacturer, component type, and parameters from a part number order code. Trust me, it's not easy; apart from manufacturers not using a common format for values (except for some reason, for tolerance letters) often they have different codes for value or part size between different lines of their own products...
Neil
Thus: 4k7 = 4.7 kOhms; 1p8 = 1.8 pF, 10M = 10 MOhms, 470U = 470 uF, 0R1 = 0.1 Ohms and so on. One difference between UK and US systems is that for a long time US values were given as powers of six - 1000pF - while UK values have for many years been powers of three - 1nF for the same part.
On passive component order codes, you often see capacitance values marked using R as a decimal place - 4R76 might be a 47 uF, 1R8 might 1.8 pF. However, there are at least two standards for marking surface mount resistors; and SM capacitors are *never* marked unless they're tantalum or aluminium electrolytics.
And if you fancy a programming challenge, try something which can unambiguously derive the manufacturer, component type, and parameters from a part number order code. Trust me, it's not easy; apart from manufacturers not using a common format for values (except for some reason, for tolerance letters) often they have different codes for value or part size between different lines of their own products...
Neil
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Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
barnacle wrote:
One difference between UK and US systems is that for a long time US values were given as powers of six - 1000pF - while UK values have for many years been powers of three - 1nF for the same part.
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?
Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
agsb wrote:
Anyway, an alternative. Comments are full welcome 
I can't read your schematic. Can you repost in monochrome?
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Re: Ben Eater's Reset Circuit
That circuit looks like it only generates a reset when you push the button, not when you power the system up. Is that your intention?