Education and 6502.org

[BillG]

Experience: learning from your mistakes
Education: learning from the mistakes of others

[sburrow]

BillG wrote:

Experience: learning from your mistakes
Education: learning from the mistakes of others

The common denominator here is "mistakes must be made". Indeed!

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:

My principal beef with U-Toobe videos is exactly what you note: they are more entertaining than instructional.

Right. I do glean what I can from videos. My new favorite channel is Adrian Black's Digital Basement. Super detailed, very informative. He makes mistakes, and that's ok. I have learned a lot from watching his videos. Not necessarily about how to repair C64's, but rather: 1) Silkscreen should be more informative about the PCB, 2) It's ok to try weird things like piggybacking chips, pulling pins horizontal, etc, and 3) To figure out problems, really spend time going back to the source of the issue, starting with power, clock, and reset. He isn't teaching me how to repair retro computers, he is teaching me how to think bigger, broader. I'm entertained, but I do glean information from him. It was just not what he was expecting I suppose.

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:

I’m sure you being a math professor has nothing to do with it.

Yep. Today was the start of a new semester. It's interesting how I approach our first class. I'm quite spastic, making suggestions like "skip the hard problems" and "get it wrong to see a pattern" and "C's get degrees". Humans are FAR better problem solvers than computers, and I show them subtly how to 'unlock' that. My class isn't supposed to simply teach students math. My class is supposed to teach them how to think, solve problems (not necessarily math), and how to use their resources. And have fun while doing it of course!

Sometimes it's ok to have someone help in 'unlocking' that understanding for you. I would give many of you here credit for that. I needed coaxing and goading, leading and dragging. BDD, you were instrumental to that many times. Same goes for Garth, Jeff, Ed, Bill (plasmo), and others. Each of you have different ways to help teach, or help ourselves self-learn. Garth lays out the facts and has you make the decision. BDD, you goad me, and I need that. Ed encourages me, and I need that too. Jeff makes you second guess your assumptions. And through many private emails, Bill (gently) forces me to self-learn in ways I never thought possible. I could go on, but you guys here have been very important to my learning, be it directly from you or in other ways that help me to learn by myself. You are my masters, I am your apprentice.

Thank you, everyone.

Chad

[BillG]

sburrow wrote:

"C's get degrees"

What do you call the person who graduated last in the class in medical school?







Doctor

[GARTHWILSON]

Over 40 years ago, a friend told me one of Murphy's laws was that your experience is proportional to the number of dollars' worth of test equipment you've damaged or destroyed.  I suppose that means it's getting harder to get experience now, as technology has made test equipment more affordable.  Actually, I think he had a book that was a satire on Murphy's law.

sburrow wrote:

My class isn't supposed to simply teach students math. My class is supposed to teach them how to think, solve problems (not necessarily math), and how to use their resources. And have fun while doing it of course!

That sure beats teaching them to throw the numbers in the chute and turn the crank without understanding what goes on inside, which there's too much of in academia.

[sburrow]

BillG wrote:

What do you call the person who graduated last in the class in medical school?
Doctor

The question often asked immediately after is: "Now, do you want THAT person for YOUR doctor?" Still, maybe I *would* want that doctor. He is a real human, who doesn't just focus on 'his grades'. Perhaps he did extra stuff on the side, perhaps his mind thinks differently then typical exams test for, perhaps he just liked playing video games when he got home from school. *shrug* It's a good point of course.

GARTHWILSON wrote:

sburrow wrote:

My class isn't supposed to simply teach students math. My class is supposed to teach them how to think, solve problems (not necessarily math), and how to use their resources. And have fun while doing it of course!

That sure beats teaching them to throw the numbers in the chute and turn the crank without understanding what goes on inside, which there's too much of in academia.

Sometimes that IS the resource that they need to use though. Just as when I use falstad.com for all of my voltage/resistor calculations, I couldn't tell you WHAT the math is behind all of that at times. Things you would think are quite simple Garth. But I have a problem, and I need a solution, straight number crunching just doesn't work for me. I let the simulator do the numbers, while I can focus on a design to make the two ends meet.

Each student has a problem in my class: They need at least 700 points in order to 'pass'. Some will make 100% on each homework using Photomath and Chegg but not do so well on the exams. Some will be lazy at home but wiz through those exams because it's all fresh in their brain. And some don't show up past the first day of class because they only wanted grant money for the down payment of that new car they always wanted. *shrug* I'm sure folks would look at my teaching style and say I'm just part of the 'degree mill'. I'm sure they're right. But the point was never 'education for educations sake'. It was for them to get a piece of paper so that they can (hopefully) get a better job, make more money, and live a better life. That was the student's problem, the 'education' they receive is not the solution, it's the hurdle they must jump over in order to reach their solution.

Now I'm going off track. Thank you.

Chad

[BillG]

If the only thing they learn is how to do research and find the correct answer, that may suffice. We all tend to forget what we are taught in classes and truly learn it only if we had to use it later.

[floobydust]

sburrow wrote:

... I'm sure folks would look at my teaching style and say I'm just part of the 'degree mill'. I'm sure they're right. But the point was never 'education for educations sake'. It was for them to get a piece of paper so that they can (hopefully) get a better job, make more money, and live a better life...

Chad

Wow... that's just plain scary, but it certainly explains a lot of why we are where we are these days... check please!

[BigDumbDinosaur]

sburrow wrote:

I'm sure folks would look at my teaching style and say I'm just part of the 'degree mill'.

That reminds me of a saying quoted by a friend: “Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it depends on what you put into it.”

[Alarm Siren]

floobydust wrote:

sburrow wrote:

... I'm sure folks would look at my teaching style and say I'm just part of the 'degree mill'. I'm sure they're right. But the point was never 'education for educations sake'. It was for them to get a piece of paper so that they can (hopefully) get a better job, make more money, and live a better life...

Chad

Wow... that's just plain scary, but it certainly explains a lot of why we are where we are these days... check please!

I can attest to this being my own observation of my time at a middling-to-bad-reputation (depending on subject) university. In my own class, there was a hardcore of people genuinely interested in the subject (of which I was one), and we got that extra knowledge by experimentation and spending time with the lab techs, but I would guesstimate that we were less than 10% of the class as a whole. The rest were either just there for the eventual job, or were there to party on government/parental money and hardly showed up at all. A similar split was true of the lecturers: most of them only taught because it was required of them, and did the bare minimum. What they really wanted to do was their research, not waste their time talking at a bunch of disinterested post-teens, and I must admit I can sympathise with that position.

One thing that still sticks with me: we had a temporary lecturer they'd shipped in from Venezuela. Lovely guy though bit strange. He was, by all accounts, an expert in VHDL, but unfortunately they didn't get him to teach that - they got him to teach real-time operating systems, a subject about which he knew nothing and in his own words
"[he was] only one or two slideshows ahead of [us]." One time I was relaxing in the school's tea bar, and he sad down next to me and started asking me about my knowledge of RTOS, and complimenting me about how good I was. Then he started asking me questions about the subject.... one in particular, was not on the module's syllabus but I happened to know the answer so I told him. It then turned up on the exam paper at the end of the year; no doubt I was the only person to get the answer correct since it was never taught nor on the syllabus. Still, not that common a student effectively gets to write their own exam question, I suppose...

[sburrow]

Alarm Siren wrote:

I can attest to this being my own observation of my time at a middling-to-bad-reputation (depending on subject) university. In my own class, there was a hardcore of people genuinely interested in the subject (of which I was one), and we got that extra knowledge by experimentation and spending time with the lab techs, but I would guesstimate that we were less than 10% of the class as a whole. The rest were either just there for the eventual job, or were there to party on government/parental money and hardly showed up at all. A similar split was true of the lecturers: most of them only taught because it was required of them, and did the bare minimum. What they really wanted to do was their research, not waste their time talking at a bunch of disinterested post-teens, and I must admit I can sympathise with that position.

Very true on both sides. Most students are not there to learn math, they are only there because it is on their degree program for whatever else makes them happy. The students who ARE there for math don't always want to learn it though, for various reasons. And not many of those who want to learn math will actually USE it in their everyday life. So it is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction who need or even care about this stuff. Disappointing? No. As a teacher, my job is to get them to pass the class and have fun while doing it. How do they pass the class and have fun while doing it? Learning the math. Sometimes you pull out the calculator, sometimes you do it by hand. Just because I mention the dreaded "degree mill" doesn't mean I simply pass folks for doing nothing.

Nearly all of what I teach them in math will be forgotten within a year, but how to solve problems WILL stick with them, even if it's not math related at all.

What if I were to "take a break" from 6502 land? Would I forget everything I learned in a year? Two years? Ten years? Probably, that's how humans work. But I would take those problem solving skills elsewhere, everywhere. The content can be important and fun, but there is much more to learning than just the content.

Chad

[BillG]

sburrow wrote:

Very true on both sides. Most students are not there to learn math, they are only there because it is on their degree program for whatever else makes them happy. The students who ARE there for math don't always want to learn it though, for various reasons. And not many of those who want to learn math will actually USE it in their everyday life. So it is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction who need or even care about this stuff. Disappointing? No. As a teacher, my job is to get them to pass the class and have fun while doing it. How do they pass the class and have fun while doing it? Learning the math. Sometimes you pull out the calculator, sometimes you do it by hand. Just because I mention the dreaded "degree mill" doesn't mean I simply pass folks for doing nothing.

I had the opportunity to take calculus in the senior year of high school. But that nearly killed me.

Freshman math at the college I went consisted of the following quarters:

1. Calculus
2. Differential equations
3. Linear algebra

After I was admitted, they sent me two "take-home" exams:

* Basic calculus
* Diff eqs and linear algebra

I took and sent back the first. Tried and did not even bother to submit the second.

I was given the opportunity to skip the first quarter which I foolishly took. I failed diff eqs spectacularly. I would later learn that part of the reason they teach diff eqs is so that you become motivated to avoid doing it whenever possible. I was given a deal:

* Repeat diff eqs in the second quarter and they will forget my first "F"
* Or take linear algebra in the second quarter; if I fail it, I fail both; if I pass it, I get a pass for both. (Our entire freshman year was pass-fail.) I was advised to take the second option. I sailed through linear algebra.

Unfortunately, the entire experience would cause me to lost my previous love for mathematics and that somewhat hampered me later.

sburrow wrote:

Nearly all of what I teach them in math will be forgotten within a year, but how to solve problems WILL stick with them, even if it's not math related at all.

That is essentially what I said above...

sburrow wrote:

What if I were to "take a break" from 6502 land? Would I forget everything I learned in a year? Two years? Ten years? Probably, that's how humans work. But I would take those problem solving skills elsewhere, everywhere. The content can be important and fun, but there is much more to learning than just the content.

I took a long break from programming the 8-bitters when my career became programming the IBM PC. The 680x, 6502, 8080 and Z80 skills came back easily when I got into retrocomputing. Like they say about riding a bike.

Edit: To clarify, senior year calculus did not nearly kill me; diff eqs did.

[barnacle]

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:

necessary to avoid egregious errors that will doom a project to failure.

Like failing to read the order form and discovering that you just ordered DIP parts instead of SOIC...

Neil