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 Post subject: Re: Voltage and Current
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:11 pm 
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sburrow wrote:
BillO wrote:
Well, here it is and it's not very promising.

This trace is using the 2N2222. The input signal (yellow) is 27MHz @ 5V p-p and the output is 2.5v p-p into 47 ohms. Base is being driven through 360 ohms.
Attachment:
MAP001.png




This trace is using a 2N3904. A tad better with an output of 3V p-p.
Attachment:
MAP002.png



A better transistor will be needed to get closer to your goal.


I honestly don't know how to read that properly. To me, it seems like it's delayed by 5ns with both of them. So I throw an 25 MHz signal into it, it has a propagation delay of 5ns, and so my color signal is delayed 5ns behind what I previously would have had. Monitors are flexible in where the 'start' and 'end' are, so if I started 5ns behind, it would actually think that is where I am starting!

But if you are saying there would be signal loss at 25 MHz, then indeed I would need a better transistor. I am sure I can handle delay, but I cannot handle signal loss.
Generally faster transistors will give you less delay as well. But you could run all the VGA signals through a similar device to make sure there is no phase shift between them.

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 Post subject: Re: Voltage and Current
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:15 pm 
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BillO wrote:
GARTHWILSON wrote:
What's the transistor circuit? And wouldn't it need to do a squarish wave at 25MHz, meaning there will be frequency components ten times as high? It looks like it's about 55° behind at 25MHz.


Just an emitter follower. Driving the base through a 360ohm resistor with a 47ohm resistor as the load connected from the emitter to ground and the collector tied to 5V. My WFG sucks. That's the best square wave it can do at 27MHz. Someday I'll have $1000 for a decent one.

However, I did try running the signal through a 74HCT14 too, but the result was no better (worse, actually). So I'm not sure his 74HCT166 is producing perfect square waves either.

The 6ns delay is in line with the spec sheet for the 2N2222. It quotes a max delay of 10ns.


I would just break out my own scope and test some 2N2222's I have, but as I have been told before: Just because I get good results on ONE, does not mean every one of them will follow suit. I had an incident like this with a 74HC161 that made me pull my hair out for about 4 days. I still have nightmares. :)

Thank you Bill, I appreciate the time you put into this.

Chad


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 Post subject: Re: Voltage and Current
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:17 pm 
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Quote:
Generally faster transistors will give you less delay as well. But you could run all the VGA signals through a similar device to make sure there is no phase shift between them.


Yes indeed. So, is this a green-light for the 2N2222? Or am I still looking elsewhere?

Chad


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 Post subject: Re: Voltage and Current
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:30 pm 
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BillO wrote:
GARTHWILSON wrote:
What's the transistor circuit? And wouldn't it need to do a squarish wave at 25MHz, meaning there will be frequency components ten times as high? It looks like it's about 55° behind at 25MHz.


Just an emitter follower. Driving the base through a 360ohm resistor with a 47ohm resistor as the load connected from the emitter to ground and the collector tied to 5V. My WFG sucks. That's the best square wave it can do at 27MHz. Someday I'll have $1000 for a decent one.

However, I did try running the signal through a 74HCT14 too, but the result was no better (worse, actually). So I'm not sure his 74HCT166 is producing perfect square waves either.

The 6ns delay is in line with the spec sheet for the 2N2222. It quotes a max delay of 10ns.

Your 360 ohm base resistor accounts for (most of) the attenuation. The fT for the 2N2222 is given as 250MHz, so the 47 ohm load will look like around 470 ohms at the base. Then the voltage divider with the 360 ohm base resistor drops the signal to around 56% of the original amplitude. If you reduce the base resistor the attenuation should improve. In any case, in this particular application it doesn't seem that attenuation is necessary a big problem since you're ultimately starting with 5V logic levels then dropping that down to 0.7V. Some recalculation of the resistors used should be able to accomodate any attenuation in the output buffer.


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 Post subject: Re: Voltage and Current
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:34 pm 
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BillO wrote:
GARTHWILSON wrote:
What's the transistor circuit? And wouldn't it need to do a squarish wave at 25MHz, meaning there will be frequency components ten times as high? It looks like it's about 55° behind at 25MHz.


Just an emitter follower. Driving the base through a 360ohm resistor with a 47ohm resistor as the load connected from the emitter to ground and the collector tied to 5V. My WFG sucks. That's the best square wave it can do at 27MHz. Someday I'll have $1000 for a decent one.

However, I did try running the signal through a 74HCT14 too, but the result was no better (worse, actually). So I'm not sure his 74HCT166 is producing perfect square waves either.

The 6ns delay is in line with the spec sheet for the 2N2222. It quotes a max delay of 10ns.

I would put a capacitor across the 360Ω resistor to compensate for the CCB. I haven't studied the data sheet for this kind of thing but I expect 22pF would be somewhere in the ballpark. Related, I see kernelthread posted while I was writing, with an additional good consideration I was forgetting.

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 Post subject: Re: Voltage and Current
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:15 am 
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sburrow wrote:
So, is this a green-light for the 2N2222? Or am I still looking elsewhere?

Chad
Yes, I would give it a shot. Based on what kernelthread added I'd go ahead and not use a base resistor at all.

Here is another experiment using this test circuit (R1=47ohms):
Attachment:
testCircuit.jpg
testCircuit.jpg [ 20.33 KiB | Viewed 525 times ]


And it gave this much more promising results:
Attachment:
MAP004.png
MAP004.png [ 10.25 KiB | Viewed 525 times ]



Given that your load will be much higher resistance (470+75=545ohms) your base current and hence the load on your 74HCT166 should only be about 1mA per VGA input.

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 Post subject: Re: Voltage and Current
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:39 am 
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BillO wrote:
sburrow wrote:
So, is this a green-light for the 2N2222? Or am I still looking elsewhere?

Chad
Yes, I would give it a shot. Based on what kernelthread added I'd go ahead and not use a base resistor at all.

Here is another experiment using this test circuit (R1=47ohms):
Attachment:
testCircuit.jpg


And it gave this much more promising results:
Attachment:
MAP004.png



Given that your load will be much higher resistance (470+75=545ohms) your base current and hence the load on your 74HCT166 should only be about 1mA per VGA input.


THAT is super awesome! Thank you Bill, very promising indeed. I will go ahead with this.

Thank you everyone, I appreciate the help and time!

Chad


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 Post subject: Re: Voltage and Current
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:31 pm 
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Just an update:

I *finally* figured out a configuration that would work. This stuff takes time for someone like me! I'm very happy falstad.com does all of the calculations automatically. It allows me to bumble about very quickly.

http://falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.ht ... tVR5eK2CAA

There's the falstad link, and attached is a picture of the same circuit. It works really well in the simulation! This will be implemented in the next board revision for sure.

Thank you again Bill, and everyone else!

Chad


Attachments:
TransistorSetup.png
TransistorSetup.png [ 9.47 KiB | Viewed 492 times ]
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