I don't think you'll get too many arguments about C's warts and such. The language's syntax seems confusing to non-C programmers, just as Forth's syntax does to non-Forth programmers. In fact, every programming language has a similar set of deficiencies, which is a natural consequence of the evolution of programming languages in general and the prejudices and opinions of the language's inventors.

In a sense, C is no worse or better than most other 3GL procedural languages. However, a well-written C program with good name choices for constants, variables and functions can be self-documenting, even with sparse commentary. This is also the case with the other 3GL procedural language in which I have professionally developed: timesharing BASIC (aka Business BASIC, which is only vaguely related to the BASICs commonly found on microcomputers).

Forth, to me, is unintelligible gibberish, not so much a computer language as an incoherent discourse on what is supposed to be going on inside a computer. I can no more relate what a Forth program says to what it does than I can relate a food recipe written in Mandarin Chinese to what the end dish will be.

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x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!

It has been said that Forth has NO syntax of its own, so your source of confusion might be the result of searching for something that simply isn't there. I am determined to add Forth to my lexicon, but it won't be easy.

Mike B.

...and that is probably a major reason why Forth has never had significant support in the computing universe.

Having professionally written software for many decades, I could never envision a language totally devoid of predictable syntax being a responsible choice for a business application that could be used for many years (I have clients running today on software I developed for them in the early 1990s). Just how does the next guy maintain your code when you move on to new pastures? Just exactly what is it that strange Forth word does? Good luck on that!

I know plenty of programmers who know C, FORTRAN, BASIC, etc., backwards and forwards. I know no one who knows anything about Forth, other than, in the words of my good friend and long-time programmer Dave, that it is a language that was "...cobbled together by a hippie while smoking a joint." (I don't actually know if Chuck Moore is/was a toker.)


For me, the question would be "Why?"

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x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!

Forth reminds me very much of the Grateful Dead: to those who love it, it's a profound transformative experience catalogued and distributed by a community of passionate advocates which must be shared with the entire world, while to those who hate it it's a meandering tangle of aimless noodling maintained and pushed by a bunch of insistent hairy freaks.

But then I don't have enough direct experience with it to say for sure which camp I'd fall into

That's a very good analogy IMO, john. I can't believe that BDD pulled the "why" card on me, though, especially in a setting such as this ... if I wasn't such a profound nerd, I'd probably be insulted!

Mike B.

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http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

I started Starting Forth at one point, I should really pick it up again.

Depends...is your hair real long?

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x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!

I did read a good part of the Brodie's book. The further I got into "Starting Forth" the further I got into questioning my sanity. In fact, I think Brodie's book is what convinced me to return to reality and keep writing assembly language, where things make sense.

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x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

Not anymore These days it cycles between "normal" and "Bee Gees..."

Have I posted a link to Sam's video here yet? He's very very good, and I hope that he makes more of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvrE2ZGe-rs

Mike B.

That was very, very good - thanks!

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

Thanks for the link. As always, a very good read. I would like to say that I'm working toward FORTH competency, but there's just not enough time available to me currently.

I have incorporated support for a FORTH-style VM in my latest implementation of my 65C02-compatible core, but I've not gone any further than testing that the instructions execute correctly. I had every intention of re-writing figFORTH (archived elsewhere on the forum) using the M65C02A core's VM instructions, but time just flies by and since I don't actively use FORTH, the motivation just isn't there for me at the moment.

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Michael A.