Forum decorum

[BigEd]

We do have some guidance (terms of use) at the time of signup, but we don't seem to have any sticky post about what kinds of behaviour are especially welcome here and what kinds are not welcome.

I have found various helpful policies laid out on other forums, from which this short list is taken:

• Be respectful. Anyone sharing creative work is making a contribution, however modest.
  Ask questions out of curiosity. Don't cross-examine.
  Instead of "you're doing it wrong", suggest alternatives. When someone is learning, help them learn more.
  When something isn't good, you needn't pretend that it is. But don't be gratuitously negative.

I have also written something of my own:

Quote:

Welcome to the forum!

We're happy to answer questions, discuss old systems or new discoveries and inventions relevant to 6502 and related processors.

Please take a moment to read these guidelines before posting, to keep things working well between us:

Advice for everyone

• Please be polite and respectful at all times. The rule is, everyone is welcome, so long as they behave well.
  Please bear in mind differences in age and background: there may be young people present; there may be people with no access to expensive lab equipment; there may be people with much less knowledge than you.
  Please note that written communication lacks cues that we get in person. Don't assume unfriendliness, hostility, or bad temper - always give the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the writer is just terse.
  Please avoid hot topics and off-topic discussions. Religion and politics are off-topic, so are insulting remarks about operating systems or computers.
  Bear in mind that you're leaving a record: this is a popular site, and a hobby which runs for years. Try to leave an informative and useful conversation which will help other readers, not just the participants.
  Feel free to start a new thread if a side discussion gets going which doesn't relate to the original poster's intention.
  If you're tempted to post something angry, wait a day. Consider a PM instead of a post.

Advice for posters (those asking questions or seeking advice)

• Please pick a good category for your post, and a descriptive title. "Question" isn't very descriptive, but "Trouble with KIM-1 display" is.
  If you're seeking help with something broken, please describe as much as you can about what your system is, what's wrong, what should have happened but didn't, what did happen, what you tried and in what order.
  If you're seeking programming help, please explain what you're trying to do and what you have so far. You'll need to show what your level of understanding and experience is.
  Please don't post a homework assignment or other academic task. We'll help you if you're stuck but we won't do your work for you.
  If you're following up after some responses, please be sure that you have read and understood those responses. If you didn't understand, explain where your difficulty is.
  Never demand help. Anyone helping you is a volunteer, and has other interesting and important things to do. If you're difficult, you won't be helped. Show that you're trying, and that you're learning.

Advice for responders (those offering assistance or advice)

• Be constructive and encouraging: suggest something which could be done. Don't overstate difficulties.
  Be informative, be a good teacher. Allow that someone might lack some piece of knowledge but be quite capable of tackling their project. Help them without condescending.
  If there's doubt, re-state the question you're answering.
  Link to other sites or previous discussions as appropriate.
  If you don't feel particularly able to help, leave it to someone else.
  Be patient.

To which I would add: don't be repetitive. Read the comments before yours and respond as if in a conversation. If you find yourself making the same point repeatedly, consider the effect on the readership and consider making a new thread which you can link to instead.

[BigEd]

A couple of things might be worth adding:

- please mark an off-topic thread with an OT: in the Subject, to help others to skip reading every update. (Before posting an off-topic thread, it might be worth a quick look around to see if there are already too many recent ones.)

- bear in mind the conversation that your comment is part of. If your comment, or the ones you are responding to, have drifted from the original topic, consider posting a new thread and linking back with an "Elsewhere..." link. Ideally also post a note in the original linking to the new one.

Moderation here has a light touch, so don't expect your comments to be re-threaded for you.

[BigEd]

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:

BigEd wrote:

> It seems like a lot of hoop-jumping to [do things this way]
I think it's not so helpful to deny the premise of a thread. This thread is about [trying to do things this way]

Ed, do you have a problem with others stating their opinions? I didn't say that he shouldn't do it, or that he was stupid for doing it, or anything else, for that matter, that was derogatory. I was merely making an observation.

A good point! It is of course good to avoid all those things you weren't doing. And it's good to hear people's opinions. But there's such a thing as a good statement in a bad place. I am sensitive to thread-drift and to negative comments about people's project ideas (arguably too sensitive.)

What I'd suggest is that if you - anyone - has specifically chosen some alternative way of proceeding, which isn't in tune with the project that a thread is about, then it's a good time to start a new thread, where you can lay out the details of how you think a project could proceed, with stories of how you did it, links to resources one might find useful, and so on. It's ideal to link back to the thread you came from, and it might even be helpful to put in a short note and a link in that pre-existing thread, helping people find your new thread.

For example, if someone was specifically making a TTL CPU, and you (anyone) had a strong interest in using CPLDs to make CPUs, that would be a good time to start a new thread rather than a digression.

Of course, if someone has an enquiry, and doesn't yet know quite know what their approach is, then of course it's fine to suggest alternatives which you're familiar with.

There are forums which are so busy that a new thread won't reach nearly as many readers as an existing thread - but here on 6502.org I think we see people popping up everywhere, and we can assume that a thread with a good Subject will reach everyone who's interested.

(Starting a new thread is a big step the first time you do it, but it shouldn't be regarded as a big deal. It is well worth writing a descriptive Subject, and sometimes it is worthwhile to edit the Subject after a few posts, if it becomes clear that the thread is about something else.

Here's an illustration:
Bad Subject: Question!
Good Subject: My design doesn't work
Later edit to Subject: Trouble with clocks and crystals
)

[BigEd]

I made an intemperate comment elsewhere, realised my mistake and thought I could explain my thoughts here. The following is of course my opinion.

Generally we have a good healthy discourse on this site, with few disagreements and little sniping or flaming.

There's one scenario which consistently brings up bad feeling, which has happened with at least three posters here that I can think of: the poster is knowledgeable and generally has good information and advice, but sometimes veers off into overstating their case. They may state opinion as fact, or present common caveats as solid rules, or present their own preferences as universals. What happens next, often enough to be noticeable, is that other posters try to moderate the position, whether by direct argument or by contradiction or by attack. Of course, sometimes this leads to an unpleasant scene - rarely these days - and sometimes it leads to repetitive statements and corrections, which might appear tedious or annoying to the bystander.

If we could find a way to avoid these things happening, the forum would be a more welcoming place, and we wouldn't lead anyone to believe that bombast or sniping are the regular fare here.

[mojo]

Sadly this seems to be something nerds are prone to doing. Make a general statement without qualification, and someone can't resist adding caveats or pointing out the corner case where it isn't true.

All you can do is suggest people try to be diplomatic and pragmatic. Assume good faith.

On a more general note, the Open Code of Conduct us the gold standard and is easy to adopt: http://todogroup.org/opencodeofconduct/

[BigEd]

Agreed, that's a good code.

[magetoo]

That code of conduct is overkill for a tiny forum with maybe a dozen active members, and guaranteed to rub anyone right of center politically the wrong way.

What BigEd suggested at the top of the thread is good.

[mojo]

The Open Code of Conduct is ideal for small communities that deal with technical stuff. Most of the stuff mentioned will never come up because discussions are technical in nature, but because it's clearly stated up front it stops those problems creeping in. I don't really see anything in there that could be contentious on a technical forum like this.

[BigDumbDinosaur]

magetoo wrote:

That code of conduct is overkill for a tiny forum with maybe a dozen active members, and guaranteed to rub anyone right of center politically the wrong way.

I have to agree. In fact, my first thought when I read it was "thought police."

[BigEd]

A code of conduct is not about what a person thinks, it is about what they say, in a particular place. If a person happens to think lots of things which a code of conduct disapproves of, they should feel encouraged to find their own platform to say those things. Of course everyone is welcome to continue discussing microprocessors here. (I see a difference between having your thoughts policed and having a considerate and respectful forum.)

Edit: rewritten.

[magetoo]

BigEd wrote:

A code of conduct is not about what a person thinks, it is about what they say, in a particular place. If a person happens to think lots of things which a code of conduct disapproves of, they should feel encouraged to find their own platform to say those things.

People will say what they think. A politically slanted CoC like this will mean that one side gets to speak their mind while the other must constantly walk on eggshells. Is this what we want?

I would much rather see something narrower that just deals with the kind of issues that a technical forum comes up against, like how to ask and answer questions, or not making too many assumptions about people. The rest can be dealt with as it happens or just by applying "Don't be an asshole".


For the record, I don't have a problem with most of what it says, it's just that I've seen well-intentioned moves like this result divisions in communities as people increasingly care more about signaling their political opinions and less about everything else.

[BigEd]

Bear in mind that the code of conduct linked has nothing to do with this forum, and probably never will. Likewise, nothing any of us say in this thread is binding on anyone here. I started the thread just to note some things I've seen and how I think it would be best to proceed.

We do, when we sign up here, agree to some terms which include guidance on acceptable behaviour.

You're right, some people will ignore the norms of a community, others will try to conform.

Personally I think it helps to express disapproval, but it's best to avoid an argumen and avoid insulting anyone. My aim is to discourage copycats, rather than to change anyone's habits.

[mojo]

magetoo wrote:

People will say what they think. A politically slanted CoC like this will mean that one side gets to speak their mind while the other must constantly walk on eggshells. Is this what we want?

Please re-read it carefully, it's not political at all. It's just enumerating what most people expect anyway. Sorry if that makes you feel like you have to walk on eggshells, but either way it's worth being aware of I think. When discussing 6502s I don't think you should have any difficulty.

[BigEd]

It's really not worth discussing whether the linked code will be found disagreeable, as it has already been found so a few posts up. I find it baffling, but others find this predictable enough. It's a demonstration, of a sort, of the diversity of the world.

If we're not careful we'll end up talking about talking about talking about microprocessors.

[rwiker]

BigEd wrote:

If we're not careful we'll end up talking about talking about talking.

Do you want to talk about that?