OT: Who invented the Personal Computer?

[ChuckT]

barrym95838 wrote:

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:

ChuckT wrote:

So, who invented the personal computer?

Isn't it like trying to determine who invented the wheel?

Yeah, my take on it is that the words "personal" and "computer" aren't sufficiently specific, and when you put them together, the definition is further diluted, almost to the point of meaninglessness.

Mike B.

You have something there.

I think by today's standards, any computer that doesn't have the internet, youtube and facebook can't be considered "personal" so that means that the Apple computer wasn't the first personal computer.

[GARTHWILSON]

There are C64's serving up websites, but not doing video. I also doubt they'll do fb. I think a computer would qualify as "personal" though if it's somewhat practical for a private individual to own and house it and not have to rent out computing time to be able to afford it. The early IBM PCs, and also the C128 which was called a PC IIRC, came along before the internet and definitely before YouTube and fb. You could get a 300bps modem (about one ten-thousandth as fast as a typical semi-modern DSL connection), or maybe a 1200bps, to connect to BBSs, but even in the early days of online services, they were text only, and sending email between services was difficult, like if you had Genie and the other party had Compuserve.

[BigEd]

I think a question like 'what's the first...' or 'when was this thing invented...' has to be understood as a question about history. Using a narrow sense of a term which only makes sense in a very recent context makes it difficult or impossible to take a historical approach. But this highlights that the right answer to a question may not be two or three words, but a discussion. In this case, one might start that discussion by distinguishing 'personal computer' from PC. In fact, these days, you might also need to address the fact that tablets and ebook readers are in some sense computers. And in other senses they are not computers. I can use visual6502 on my ebook reader - that adds another sense in which it is a computer!

[ChuckT]

I just have a pet peeve with Woz saying they invented the first personal computer because it would never have happened without a whole lot of other people like MOS who don't get the credit. I think it is safe to say that Chuck Peddle started the whole personal computer revolution.

The Texas Instruments TMX 1795 microprocessor was actually there before the 8008.

[BigEd]

I doubt that Woz would make the claim, but an attention-grabbing headline might.
Edit: but see below, it seems he does.

I see Woz starts by talking about minicomputers - I read an excellent article addressing the question of the first minicomputer. You'll notice it discusses criteria and the reasons for them, and the many possible answers depending on that. See http://tronola.com/html/who_built_the_f ... omput.html

How much better off we are with studies and analyses - how impoverished we'd be if all we had were the attention grabbing headlines.

(I think perhaps the Datapoint article I mentioned earlier addresses the first micro. The same thing applies: discuss the possible questions and the possible answers if you want to get a historical understanding)

[ChuckT]

http://www.amazon.com/iWoz-Computer-Inv ... 0393330435

Yes, he did.

The single board computer that Chuck Peddle made should have been first.

http://rick-melick.blogspot.com/2013/01 ... -6560.html

[BigEd]

You're taking the subtitle of the book as a statement from Woz? I'd be more convinced if there was a quote from him, to be honest. [Edit: But see below, I found a quote from the iWoz book]

Which single board computer are you thinking of? (Edit: perhaps the KIM-1?) Remember the rule: the answer depends on the question. For some people, a computer has a keyboard and screen. For some, it has to be commercially successful. For some, it needs mass storage. It's more interesting to say what you found and what its characteristics are, than to proclaim it as the one true answer without qualification.

[ChuckT]

His website credits him.

http://www.woz.org/about

Too many news stories have passed that I cannot recover from the web but I am guessing the claim could be in his book.

[ChuckT]

http://www.google.com/#q=steve+jobs+we+ ... 9QZIP0M%3A

It is actually a quote from Steve Jobs.

[BigEd]

OK, so we can expect a little hype and self-aggrandisement from Steve Jobs!

Your earlier link on Woz' website actually gives a quote from the Heinz Award people, not from Steve W.

However, I found that Steve W does say this in iWoz at the close of chapter 2:
"When I look back, that Adder/Subtractor was such a key project in my getting to be the engineer who ended up building the first personal computer."

Some dates:

• LINC, using DEC System Module Blocks and cabinets, 1962
  Olivetti Programma 101 Release date 1965 (transistors, wire delay lines)
  HP 9100A 1968 (transistors, magnetic core memory)
  Datapoint 2200 programmable terminal, 1970
  Kenbak-1 1971 (TTL)
  MCS-4 1971 (4004)
  HP 9830A desktop BASIC machine, 1972 (TTL)
  Micral N in early 1973 (8008)
  MCM/70 personal, luggable, APL machine, announced September 25, 1973
  Mark-8 kit published July 1974 (8008)
  IBM 5100 Release date September 1975 (PALM, made of many bipolar gate arrays)
  Jolt November 1975 (6502)
  TIM also 1975 (6502)
  Martin Research Mike-2 also 1975 (8008)
  Apple 1 Release date April 11, 1976 (6502)
  advertisement for the KIM-1 microcomputer, May 1976 (6502)

(Edit: see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... _computers)

So, maybe we see a little self-aggrandisement from Woz there, or maybe he's unaware of the Jolt, or maybe for some reason he discounts it. Maybe he's thinking of having been the first to think of the idea, that in his view the Jolt was conceived after the Apple 1. At minimum, he makes a controversial claim!

Edit: the Apple 1 did had video out and came with a loadable Basic. The KIM-1 has a hex keypad and hex display, so more self contained but arguably less capable as delivered. I'd have to say they are both personal computers, but it does depend on what you mean by a computer. For programming in Basic, the Apple 1 is the more appropriate purchase.

Edit: various updates to the list above, including linkification.

Edit: see also a couple of good explorations of the timeline of the first personal computer, for various definitions of what that might mean, from elsewhere in this thread:
- Reverse-timeline quiz
- Who built the first minicomputers?

Edit: slightly related, a good article by Ken Shirriff on "The Surprising Story of the First Microprocessors"

[ChuckT]

I downloaded a .pdf that is more direct. I believe I have seen more proof but his partner has to make him an unwilling accomplice for him to claim otherwise.


[PDF]When We Invented the Personal Computer... Steve Jobs, Vice ...
http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf ... mputer.pdf
by S Jobs - ‎Cited by 1 - ‎Related articles
Steve Jobs, Vice Chairman. Apple Computer, Inc. 10260 Bandley Drive. Cupertino, CA 96014. (800) 539 9696. “When we invented the personal computer, we ...

Link fixed!

[White Flame]

Konrad Zuse built the first Personal Computer. Built it in his house, with his own money, based on his own annoyances with numerical processes. Personal enough for me.

[cbscpe]

In this case I throw in Charles Babbage's Analytical Machine, although never finished during his life-time it was the first programmable machine.

But I think nobody "invented" the personal computer. The first computers were built to solve problems and not to be used be a single person as his computer. Over time computers got smaller, lighter and more affordable and suddenly, there was a group of "users" that used them for their personal use only. It's like the KIM-1 or the AIM-65 that were intended for the engineers to get familiar with the concept of microprocessors and the specific chips and much to the surprise of the manufacturer they found out that amongst the buyers many of them just bought them for their hobby at home.

The question only leads to endless arguments, not to mention my post

[BigEd]

It sounds like we need to celebrate not Zuse's first machine, but his third: "His greatest achievement was the world's first programmable computer; the functional program-controlled Turing-complete Z3 became operational in May 1941." Otherwise we'd be in danger of including mere calculators! Much as I love Babbage[1][2], he didn't build his machines, so I'd prefer not to count them. Even though they were in some sense invented. (The Difference Engine has since been built, but is only a calculator. The Analytical Engine is not yet built.)

Recently I read the idea that early adopters of microcomputers came in two distinct types: those who'd had access to minicomputers, and those who'd started with calculators, and they had different expectations and needs. Woz was a calculator user but his main interest was in recreating the minicomputer experience.

[BigEd]

I've updated the list above, of candidate machines for the title of first personal computer, and added links for each.

I resisted the temptation of adding the 1958 "PC-1" as the P stands for parametron, not personal - a very interesting non-semiconductor solid-state logic technology.