Why do we do this?

[Aslak3]

This is a bit of a random question. Hopefully it will lead to some interesting discussions.

In short, why do you have this interest that we all seem to share? The details aren’t important. What I’m assuming we all share is an interest in what might be considered non-mainstream computing. Weather it is reproducing the computers of the past, improving them with modern components, or using 6502s in FPGAs, the common ground is there.

I will attempt to answer my own question. For me there are three angles that drive this interest:

1. Since about the mid 90s computers have become impossible (for me) to completely understand, top to bottom and left to right. I pretty much knew the Sinclair Spectrum completely. It was possible to understand exactly how it worked. I almost had the same relationship with my Amigas. It was certainly possible to understand those machines completely, both hardware and software, and many people did. It is not possible (for me) to do that with modern computer systems. Things are hidden, details obscured, or there is simply too much to know. In building my own microcomputer I can again use a system I completely understand. Every software routine I write, every part of the circuit (including stuff in HDL) I know what it does and why it is there. I find this compelling.

2. The challenge of producing a working computer system of my own design. The fact that is not useful to others does not matter. I still consider it an achievement. It is a fun and interesting hobby, which is what hobbies are for.

3. Since starting out about 2 years ago, I have laid out reasonably complex PCBs, got much better at soldering, learned about SMT, revisited digital logic design, and learned VHDL, something I managed to miss out on through my university studies 20 years ago. I’ve also learned a lot about microcontrollers. Most of these things are current skills with value.

I’m very interested to learn other peoples thoughts. Are you motivated by the same kinds of things? Is there a real practical angle? Maybe you are actually making real products? Perhaps the computers you've built are doing actual useful work?

Apologies for the strangeness of this question. I’ve just been curious to know if maybe my situation is unique? I’m guessing it isn’t but it would be great to hear other people’s perspectives.

[White Flame]

Because there are unsolved problems.

[HansO]

An engineering challenge, a chance to play with complex technical objects, design and build something out of nothing, in short because it is fun?

[BigEd]

As with you, Aslak3, for me a lot of it is dealing with something simple enough to drill down all the way to the bottom, but complex enough to be interesting. Also, a degree of imprinting - it goes beyond nostalgia, I think, to something like a fixation. Which is why people get very attached to a particular computer or particular CPU.

Cheers
Ed

[ChuckT]

Aslak3 wrote:

This is a bit of a random question. Hopefully it will lead to some interesting discussions.

In short, why do you have this interest that we all seem to share? The details aren’t important. What I’m assuming we all share is an interest in what might be considered non-mainstream computing. Weather it is reproducing the computers of the past, improving them with modern components, or using 6502s in FPGAs, the common ground is there.

I remember seeing a room of Commodore Pets in elementary school but even though I begged and begged to be able to use one for five minutes, the answer was always "no" because they were for the gifted program or you had to be an "A" student.

I remember being in the doctor's office and someone left a Computer magazine on the seat while he was visiting the doctor so guess who was reading it.

I met a young programmer at school whom I knew and I saw one of his programming books. I told him, "Why didn't you tell me before?" I found out I could get a copy at the bookstore so I saved up a few dollars and bought a programming book so that I could dream what it was about. It had those curious Petscii graphics and it just opened up another world that wasn't possible before. It opens up a world of imagination.

My sister was in the gifted program and she got to use a Wang. Her class was making long printout calendars with ASCII graphics. I took one to school and they were the rage and all the teachers wanted one for their classroom door to show off to parents to make themselves look important. My sister brought home punch cards and I was like "What is that?" Ask some kids today what punch cards are today and they will have no clues. My sister's teacher brought a Wang to school for show and tell and anyone who answered what Fortran stands for got to play with the computer so I got to play with the computer for five minutes but I didn't know what I was doing so I didn't do much.

My High school had a teletype machine hooked up to college courses so I played with that in High School. I knew I wanted one but I knew that my parents would complain that it costs money.

I got a Commodore 64 for Christmas with a tape drive and the only programs I had were in the manual and I had at least three other books with programs in it. I wanted to do more with it so I visited the computer store at the mall and the manager said that Atari joysticks worked with it and I bought an Atari joystick with a lot of skepticism and with the view that it wouldn't work and I would be returning it but the joystick worked.

I was trying to figure out what to do with it so I practiced programming examples every day until I learned BASIC and then I learned it again in High School on the Apple IIe, Apple II, and Apple II+ computers because I took a class on computer math and I had to do a lot to get into that class and that class was one of my best grades.

I eventually got the Commodore Reference Manual and subscribed to Compute's Gazette and Compute as well as the other magazines.

I didn't know Assembly and I tried learning from Jim Butterfield's books but machines are a little harder than the bootloader like Basic and then you realize that these computers are only possible because different people made things happen.

Then Commodore went bankrupt and then everyone started selling their machines and went to IBM or a few bought MAC. The cult was dead or at least I thought and reality set in. No one did anything with the I.P. but I miss those days.

So then I got involved in Microcontrollers and chips and I hope to learn how to use them. I have six or more different microcontrollers and have been wanting to learn how to use them but maybe someday I will have the time and maybe someone will help me get started but I bought all the equipment and books to get started on ARM, AT Tiny, PIC, etc.. We will see what happens.

If you haven't seen Kickstarter, there is a $9 computer and I might get one. I would like to do more computer related development but I want to be more of a producer than a consumer.

[barrym95838]

I'm a software guy, and wish that I could improve my hardware skills with a minimum of fuss ... no joy as of yet.

I have been fascinated with 6502 assembly language since 1981, when I mis-typed a DATA statement for a ML sound routine in an Applesoft moon landing program in Softside Magazine, and my Apple ][+ dropped me into the monitor. 6502 assembly is so brilliantly amazing to me. Like Icy said in an old thread which Garth likes to quote, programming the 6502 makes my brain feel good, and it's more of a treat than a chore for me.

Mike B.

[BigDumbDinosaur]

Why do I do this?

In answering that question, I am reminded of an episode from the popular U.S. television program "JAG" in which one of the main characters, a U.S. Navy commander, asks his superior, an admiral, why he is giving him a hard time. The admiral replies, "Because I can."

I do it because I am able to do it and because I like building things. It's all about learning, planning and executing, reveling in the successes and trying to figure out the failures. It's all about creating something from raw material and one's synapses. It's all about being able to do something that requires resourcefulness and ingenuity.

Over the years, I've built quite a bit of stuff, most of which wasn't useful in the conventional sense. Here's is what I wrote on my POC website about that aspect of the computing hobby:

• What will POC be good for?
  
  Let me answer by asking you a question. What is stamp collecting good for? How about wood-carving?
  
  Not everything that we do has to be "good for something." Hobby computers are built for education and fun—it's a hobby, y'know! I like building "stuff," whether "useful" or not. For example, I am working on a one-eighth scale model of a Diesel-electric locomotive just for the fun of it. This model is close to seven feet in length, weighs nearly a half ton, and yes, actually runs and can pull a pretty long and heavy train. Viewed from a practical sense, my locomotive won't be able to transport passengers between major cities and my POC computer won't have the capability to host Amtrak's rail passenger reservation system. However, POC will be able to "compute," at least at the level of a Commodore 64—minus the graphics and music, but with considerably greater performance.
  
  Most importantly, thinking, planning and building will be a constant mental challenge, especially in writing system software. Therefore, to me it is good for something, which is cerebral fitness.

That last paragraph sums it up for me. It is brain power that differentiates human beings from other species. If it weren't for development of the human brain, we would merely be, to borrow a term from Dr. Desmond Morris, naked apes. So I, at least, feel that it is incumbent to keep that brain exercised and as fit as possible so as to not degenerate into a naked ape.

The direct reason I got into hobby computing was a decline in my health. I have always wanted to try scratch-building some kind of computer, and following a major health setback some six years ago, I decided it was time to do it. I signed up here, did lots of reading to see what others had done and then set goals and worked to achieve them. I knew that nothing that I might design and build would be "practical." However, it would be educational and fun, and most importantly, something I could continue to do well after my physical capabilities have declined to where I could no longer do other things that I do now, such as large-scale model railroading.

A bonus of this hobby is that I've had an opportunity to exchange ideas and conversation with new friends. Many of us have never met face-to-face—and may never meet, and many of us are separated by thousands of miles or kilometers, not to mention an ocean or two. Our native languages are not all the same and we come from lands with disparate customs and cultures. Nevertheless, we all have a common curiosity about digital electronics, especially when the venerable but still fascinating 6502 microprocessor is involved. Thanks to the ubiquity of the Internet, we can share our curiosities and successes, and together try to figure out the failures.

To me, that in itself is worth a lot.

One of my toys, built back when I was a bit younger.

Another one of my toys, still in the build process.

My current toy, POC V1.1. This unit was one I built for a hobbyist in Australia. It is the only POC unit "in the wild."

[Dr Jefyll]

Aslak3 wrote:

Is there a real practical angle? Maybe you are actually making real products? Perhaps the computers you've built are doing actual useful work?

Very much so, in my case. For example, in 1985 or thereabouts I began using single-chip microcontrollers in projects for customers, and my Development System was entirely homebrew. The target devices were Intel MCS-48 family, but no way was I prepared to acquire an Intel DS.

The 8748 and 8741 devices were irresistible. Single-chip microcontrollers were not commonplace, and to find a product that was eprom-based -- accessible to mere mortals! -- seemed a miracle. The upshot is I wrote an MCS-48 assembler in FIG Forth, and built a programmer that attaches to a VIA on my workbench computer. At that time I was using my modified KIM-1. (Back then, that was my PC! My first use of an MS-DOS-based DS for microcontrollers was almost a decade later.)

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:

A bonus of this hobby is that I've had an opportunity to exchange ideas and conversation with new friends. [...]

To me, that in itself is worth a lot.

Computers have also been a wonderful hobby for me, and I heartily echo BDD's sentiments about being able to share that! Best regards to you all,

Jeff

[8BIT]

I began my 8 bit odyssey in 1977 when I was in 7th grade. Our little country school did not have any technology. I picked up an electronics magazine from the grocery store and started reading about digital circuits. I was reading about digital logic: AND, OR, XOR and learning about truth tables. I also saw the "new" computer kits that were available. The COSMAC Elf was one system that seemed really cool. I read the entire series of articles from Popular Electronics ( http://incolor.inebraska.com/bill_r/elf ... f-1-33.htm )and got to where I understood almost everything each circuit and wire was doing and learned it’s machine language. In 1979, I saved enough to buy the Netronics ELF II kit. After teaching myself to solder, I quickly assembled the kit and was amazed when it first powered up. I was off and running writing programs and learning to program using the hex keypad and the Elf’s bootstrap mode.

I eventually moved on to a Commodore 64 and the 6502. Many years later, I came back to the 6502 and my 8 bit odyssey continued. If you really want to hear more, check out the “about me” page and “news –history” page on my website. http://sbc.rictor.org/about.html

My systems were never designed for a specific purpose, but rather as building blocks for the next step or to help others get their feet wet.

I enjoy the challenge of doing something new and learning and expanding my skill set. While I have moved to other interests, I still keep in touch here. I have made many friends from this group and enjoy the camaraderie that we share.

Daryl

[GARTHWILSON]

I was thinking I needed to write such an article ("Why do we do this?") for my website, but now I don't have to! Keep it coming, everyone! I may just link to this topic. [Edit: done.]

My own reasons are in my intro post and the intro page of my 6502 primer, but I can add some more here.

I'll go for Aslak3's #1. I want to understand and control every bit of the code, timing, etc. for my uses on the workbench. I'm not it in this for nostalgia or academic reasons. I don't need GIPS performance, but I'll take all the performance I can get with a simple system like the 6502 or '816. The computer is not an end in itself for me. I want to be able to use my workbench computers for controlling experiments, taking data, etc., and have complete control without having to be a computer engineer. Someone might say, "Why don't you just use _______ [fill in the blank]. It's cheap and all that stuff is already done for you." That's part of the problem. There's too much complexity that you don't stand a chance of fully understanding and controlling.

A problem with PCs is the lack of stability. If you want an example of stability, look not to the consumer market, but to factory floors for example where RS-232 is still in use because it works and they can't afford to stop production every time the next cool thing comes out to install, or when consumer stuff breaks down. I like Samuel Falvo's essay, "Software Survivalism," which, in spite of the name, is about hardware too. I would like to see this way of thinking become more popular and organized. I also like his essay, "Neo-Retro Computing," and I am challenged by "Low Fat Computing (A politically incorrect essay by Jeff Fox)." He and Chuck Moore (inventor of Forth), taking an entirely different programming philosophy, plus Forth hardware and software, have improved the compactness and speed of code by factors of anywhere from 100 to 1000. I don't like bloatware, and I do enjoy the challenge of striving for elegant, efficient, maintainable, well documented solutions, rather than a "just get it going" mentality. I don't like things like USB that are not workbench-friendly. I also don't like closed, proprietary software and designs. The 6502/816 field has been useful and fun for me.

[jac_goudsmit]

My main reason is the same as your reason #1: computers used to be easy to understand, and (somewhat ironically) the fact that lots of people use them and all different choices in hardware and software must work together, makes it impossible for someone to completely understand their computer all the way down to the flipflops that make up the registers in the CPU.

In addition, I'm marveled by the amount of information that is available about hardware and software nowadays. You want a data sheet? Just google for it. Want to share your work on a retro computer? Go to 6502.org! Back in the day you'd be happy to have access to a TTL databook. Even at the university you had to know the right people to get access.

I remember when I learned 6502 assembly language from Rodnay Zaks' book while I was supposed to do my biology homework, and I remember how excited I felt to learn every little bit of knowledge about the 6502 and how it was an oasis of logic in a world that was going insane around me (my parents split up around the time). The projects that I work on are an attempt at sharing that feeling of accomplishment, simply from learning about hardware and software.

And by making my projects into kits, I want to combine it with sharing even more sense of accomplishment of putting together something with your own hands, out of simple parts that have been available for dozens of years and are still useful. I was subscribed to magazines such as Elektor (Elektuur) for a while and I remember I always wanted to build the circuits such as the Junior computer, but I built maybe two or three kits over the years because they were just too expensive to merit the expense. Nowadays electronics are a lot cheaper than in the 1980s so I'm catching up a little.

So in conclusion: Nostalgia for the most part, but also a sense that this kind of knowledge is becoming a lost art and it must be shared with others. And of course a bit of ego-tripping because I now have the knowledge and resources to design and build a computer. Not to mention the ego-trip of getting others to become (more) interested in it.

===Jac

[chitselb]

In "Halt and Catch Fire" the Cameron character is a coding expert, but the word 'hacker' is avoided. In 1983 that word was in common usage and I wanted to be called a hacker by others. I was miffed when the press redefined that term to mean someone who uses computers and networks for nefarious purposes. I'm a greybeard, so 6502 is a nostalgia thing for me. I didn't have the chops back then at 21 to pull off the project I'm working on now, and it still feels a little outside my capabilities sometimes. Getting a product to market isn't the goal. There is no market. I work on the 6502 for fun, and to feed my hunger for perfectionism and control. I have always liked small resource development work because it puts me in that place when I was 14 and I had 4K of memory and Wang BASIC and that was it. How was I going to get it to work? I think it was Jeff Minter who said that while playing games on the 6502 is fun, programming the 6502 is the best game there is.

[Alienthe]

The 6502 is an elegant processor from a more civilized age, to rephrase the expression. The age was when software and hardware was as much art as it was science. And this is where I remember the old days.

[GARTHWILSON]

I like enso's totally relevant post at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2682&p=35151#p35151 in the topic "Getting young people into 6502."

[scotws]

One reason for me, too, is wanting to understand how a computer works at the lowest level possible. Of course, that also means I have this fantasy of wanting to design my own CPU from scratch at some point, but that's far in the future ...

The second reason would be the pure escapism of a hobby that has nothing to do with my day job at all, or, put differently, a way to keep sane (for certain definitions of "sane", cough).

The third reason that has become more and more important is the mental discipline: Having to concentrate on something, hard. My job requires lots of vigilance tasks with changing input, which is a smart-ass way of saying that I have to watch computer screens for long periods of time. This absolutely kills your ability to concentrate, and unchecked reduces your attention span to the point where TV commercials become hard to follow ("Wait, which toilet paper was the soft one again?"). I can tell how bad that gets during meditation, where the simple act of counting ten breaths can become almost impossible.

Assembler programming is fantastic at counteracting that effect. Using breath-counting as a measuring stick again, I have rarely if ever been able to "get to ten" again and again as I did after the long bout of coding Tali Forth. I'm sure there are other things I could do for the same effect, but this is fun, inexpensive, and you have created something new when it is all over. I have become convinced that Vulcans code in assembler ...