Advice Reqd For Tools.

[DRG]

Hi All.

I have a couple of questions.

1) I've made do with a soldering iron I bought from Tandy in the UK around 35+ years ago. It is a Weller SI 15D Soldering Iron (240v / 15w). I've just looked on eBay and someone is selling one - it has "vintage" in the title!
However, as my aspirations are to move my 65C02 system from breadboard to PCB. I envisage it'll be mostly through-hole stuff I'll be doing, but it would be nice to attempt the bigger SMD stuff too if ever I get into the PCB design aspects. So, my question is this: will this soldering iron suffice or should I get something more modern? I have no clue as to what Wattage or temperatures are needed. Is a soldering station needed (with a hot air gun) for what I want to do?

2) I have looked but cannot find this next item - but that may be because I don't know the right search terms. I'm looking for some kind of socket I can put the 65C02 in which takes up the same footprint on the breadboard but allows me to hookup Dupont connectors to for testing purposes. I have seen the huge clips (mega-expensive) and tiny (individual) test clips which would be too messy. Does such a product exist for a reasonable price?

Thanks.

Dave

[drogon]

DRG wrote:

Hi All.

I have a couple of questions.

1) I've made do with a soldering iron I bought from Tandy in the UK around 35+ years ago. It is a Weller SI 15D Soldering Iron (240v / 15w). I've just looked on eBay and someone is selling one - it has "vintage" in the title!
However, as my aspirations are to move my 65C02 system from breadboard to PCB. I envisage it'll be mostly through-hole stuff I'll be doing, but it would be nice to attempt the bigger SMD stuff too if ever I get into the PCB design aspects. So, my question is this: will this soldering iron suffice or should I get something more modern? I have no clue as to what Wattage or temperatures are needed. Is a soldering station needed (with a hot air gun) for what I want to do?

Hi,

Some say Wellers never die, but mine did - after 40 years...

15w may be a little low but it would work for typical ICs - where it might be a little slow if soldering larger wires when it might not be able to get enough heat to the joints. I think that a temperature controlled iron in the 40-50 watt range is better - Personally, I use 340°C for leaded solder and maybe 380° for lead-free, however my iron has a pencil-tip - you may be better off with a chisel-tip to start with and use lower temperatures.

I'd stick with what you have before upgrading though - it is rated to 400° so ought to be fine - just don't hold it against IC pins for more than you need to. (Or use sockets)

I have a good hot-air station too, but only ever seem to use it for heat-shrink tubing... The few SMT things I've soldered have all been with the iron...

Quote:

2) I have looked but cannot find this next item - but that may be because I don't know the right search terms. I'm looking for some kind of socket I can put the 65C02 in which takes up the same footprint on the breadboard but allows me to hookup Dupont connectors to for testing purposes. I have seen the huge clips (mega-expensive) and tiny (individual) test clips which would be too messy. Does such a product exist for a reasonable price?

Don't think I've seen anything like that - but yes, those big 40-pin clips are not cheap.

However if you're on a breadboard then you have the rows next to the CPU to push a little wire into to clip the 'scope probe onto. Or you can just probe individual pins on the ICs if needed.

Don't be afraid to just hook it all up and see what happens though. Both my recent projects have started on breadboards and have more or less "just worked". Even at 2Mhz. And there's always good old stripboard since you're in the UK (I think) I've used that with my 6502 projects too with good results up to 16Mhz.

An issue with a lower wattage iron soldering to stripboard is that the tracks can absorb a lot of heat though so it might take a good few seconds to get it hot enough to flow the solder.

Hope it goes well.

Cheers,

-Gordon

[barnacle]

Eeee, when I were a lad we 'ad to use t'iron heated up in t'fire... but happily things have moved on since then.

I would follow Gordon's advice and seek a temperature controlled iron, ideally with a selection of bits. If the Weller is still working then you may find a new tip or two cheaper than a new iron. There are some very nice temperature controlled irons around but sadly they're not cheap - you might find prices of three to six hundred quid. I used an ancient Antex for years, but since I moved to 220v land I bit the bullet and bought something a bit more professional (with a very fine tip which requires 370C for most use - the fine tip is further from the controlled element and so cooler).

For clips, yup, seventy quid for a forty-pin DIP clip is a bit eye-watering, and probably reflects how rarely they're used these days. I have successfully used the individual clips that come with logic analysers, but more handful can be a bit of a pain.

Neil

(220v from 240v doesn't sound like a lot, but resistive heaters - kettles, toasters, soldering irons - all show the 19% difference in power)

edit: at the moment there are a couple on the bay in the UK and only mildly obscene prices e.g. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133889689422

[DRG]

drogon wrote:

15w may be a little low but it would work for typical ICs - where it might be a little slow if soldering larger wires when it might not be able to get enough heat to the joints.

Yes - I have experienced this - I was attempting to tin the end of some twisted mains cable the other week. Couldn't get the solder to flow. I though it was because I couldn't get enough temperature into the copper but wondered if that was because the Weller is getting old and losing efficiency.

barnacle wrote:

For clips, yup, seventy quid for a forty-pin DIP clip is a bit eye-watering, and probably reflects how rarely they're used these days. I have successfully used the individual clips that come with logic analysers, but more handful can be a bit of a pain.

Hmm - thought so. Which is why I've got a cunning plan to construct my own - a bit like a lego approach. If it works, I'll share - if not, it'll stay hidden and no more will ever be said. The proof-of-concept worked, but there will be some (cheap) new parts from eBay required and a lot more soldering!

Thanks.

Dave

[drogon]

barnacle wrote:

Eeee, when I were a lad we 'ad to use t'iron heated up in t'fire... but happily things have moved on since then.

And The BBC is no-longer steam powered either

Quote:

I would follow Gordon's advice and seek a temperature controlled iron, ideally with a selection of bits. If the Weller is still working then you may find a new tip or two cheaper than a new iron. There are some very nice temperature controlled irons around but sadly they're not cheap - you might find prices of three to six hundred quid. I used an ancient Antex for years, but since I moved to 220v land I bit the bullet and bought something a bit more professional (with a very fine tip which requires 370C for most use - the fine tip is further from the controlled element and so cooler).

Oddly... when my old Weller died I drive to my nearest Maplin and bought the cheapest one they had with temperature control... Figuring it would last me to get the job I needed done that weekend then I could take a deep breath and order the Metcal I wanted...

The trouble is, it did the job rather well, and is still going strong to this day, so that wasn't £35 wasted.

A quick look on ebay and you can get a "station" with hot air and temperature controlled iron for under £50.

How good are they? Probably "good enough".

-Gordon

[plasmo]

I took a deep breath and bought a Metcal, used. Still going strong 20 years later and tips are still readily available.

The cheap spring-loaded socket can be abused and accept a wire in the same socket in addition to IC pin. It’ll ruin the socket, but you can use second socket for a 6502 and push in short wires next to each 6502 pins. This way you can easily hookup scope probes, then throw away the second socket when you are done. Lot cheaper than the big IC clip.
Bill

[GARTHWILSON]

I've been using the same Weller model of soldering iron for four decades, but it apparently just went out of production, and I got a bunch of new tips, heaters, and a new handle just in time.  The heater is 30W and I use a 1/8" chisel tip on it.  I think the main reason people use a temperature-controlled iron is that they're afraid high temperatures will damage ICs; but where I was working in the mid-1980's, I sometimes did thermal scans on VHF and UHF power transistors under maximum stress (before the caps were put on, so you could see the die, ie, the actual silicon chip), where a transistor the size of your fingernail was dissipating hundreds of watts (that doesn't include the output power), and I saw over 350°C at one point.  I don't know how much over 350°C, because I wasn't allowed to get calibration data at higher temperatures.  The part would not have lasted long operating at that temperature, but it didn't die in the 15 or 30 minutes that I was working on it.  The die (the actual silicon chip) in an IC isn't going to get anywhere near that hot when you solder one pin at a time with a soldering iron, even if the iron is at 450°C or 500°C.  If you damage something with the soldering iron, it won't be the ICs.  If you solder chip capacitors by hand, you do have to be careful not to damage the plating on the ends.

[BigEd]

You could try stacking a wire-wrap socket into a sacrifical socket - that will give you some conductors to grip onto. But if it works at all, the sacrificial socket might suffer.

[barnacle]

GARTHWILSON wrote:

was dissipating hundreds of watts

I have read that the power dissipation from a modern processor per square meter exceeds the dissipation per square meter of the surface of the sun...

When I'm working on the company products, I need to be able to work down to 0402 and sometimes 0201 stuff (and also mostly with various lead-free solders) so the control is sometimes handy; I need that tiny tip. Though sometimes I also need hot air to get components on and off the board and getting the one I want and not all its friends and neighbours is a bit of a black art.

But for quicky 60-40 SnPb homebrew soldering, anything that's hot enough works

Neil

edit: at a previous job, I was designing control systems for robots that navigated deep drills five miles down... we had to build stuff that worked from -40C to +150C with testing to +165C, and we were starting to look at 230C targets. Even at 150C if you use the wrong solder or there is contamination with some metals, things start falling off the board. The 10,000G vibration testing was just a courtesy detail.

[BigDumbDinosaur]

I've been using a Weller 40 watt, temperature-controlled station for about 25 years.  I also have my “uncontrolled” 40 watt Weller that I purchased way back in 1972.  The latter has a 1/4 inch chisel tip for general soldering, tinning wires, etc..  The temp-controlled unit normally has a 1/8 inch chisel tip and is used to solder chips, PCB-mounted relays, transistors, etc..  I set it at a relatively-high 425° C to minimize the time required to bring a joint to soldering temperature.

For the really big jobs, I have the “killer” soldering iron, rated at 250 watts and with a 3/4 inch chisel tip.  That iron is capable of soldering lugs onto the ends of automobile battery cables.    It’s a little bit overkill for most work. 

[Virtual1]

I've been soldering since I was 12, and it's been my experience that the iron is FAR less important than the hand it's in. Name brands just make your wallet lighter. Weller are nice but don't give you much more for the added cost. I used a Tenma for decades. (I've also used my share of butane irons, and for THAT I would actually recommend Weller)

I was recently introduced (quite by surprise) to the rise of "USB soldering irons". Lots of unrecognizable brand names, many sets using the same tips. These "tips" are sticks with the tip on the end and heater in the shaft, and they just slide into the handle, which has a computer-controlled power adjustment, often with added features like automatic return to standby temp if set down for 5 min. While I prefer the big older irons, I must admit the USB ones are handy, and super portable with a USB power bank. Here's the one I settled on: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C1G9MNNT I'd say that route is probably best for someone just getting into soldering. It's not my regular iron, but it comes with me in the field and does get used from time to time. Warm up time is VERY fast, and 65w is enough for anything short of big ground planes and #8 and heavier wire.

[BigDumbDinosaur]

Virtual1 wrote:

I was recently introduced (quite by surprise) to the rise of "USB soldering irons"...Warm up time is VERY fast, and 65w is enough for anything short of big ground planes and #8 and heavier wire.

Wondering how one gets 65 watts out of a USB port.  At 5 volts, you’d need 13 amps flowing through those skinny little wires.

[GARTHWILSON]

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:

Virtual1 wrote:

I was recently introduced (quite by surprise) to the rise of "USB soldering irons"...Warm up time is VERY fast, and 65w is enough for anything short of big ground planes and #8 and heavier wire.

Wondering how one gets 65 watts out of a USB port.  At 5 volts, you’d need 13 amps flowing through those skinny little wires.

The USB spec. allows the master and a device that has the needed intelligence to negotiate a higher voltage and current limit.  How many masters could do it though?  Why not just have the iron plug into the mains, or at least use a wall wart.

[commodorejohn]

For another project and a slightly different purpose (breaking out half of a dual op-amp from a PCB that only uses the one) I picked up an IC socket with extra-long pins, so that I could stack the IC on a piece of stripboard above the rest of the project and run wires to the relevant pins without having to try soldering them to the flip side of the PCB or anything fiddly like that. Still need to actually do that part, though, so take the suggestion with a grain of salt.

[BigEd]

(USB-C allows negotiation of higher voltages, for power delivery (PD) up to 65W)