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[No True Scotsman]

allisonlastname wrote:

Slight issue:

2023-08-16_22-54.png

But yes, I have seen those boards before and they look useful.

Copy and paste the description into the search on Ebay's UK website. Surely someone must ship them there. Be sure to sort the listings by "Price + Shipping: lowest first." Although I don't always choose the lowest priced listing if I can get a better unit cost from a listing for more pieces.

[paritybit]

I'm in US and looking for some recommendations on various sized breadboards to play with. I've heard bad things on the likes of aliexpress and such.

Any reasonably priced good ones / links or vendor someone can recommend?

[GARTHWILSON]

paritybit wrote:

I'm in US and looking for some recommendations on various sized breadboards to play with. I've heard bad things on the likes of aliexpress and such.

Any reasonably priced good ones / links or vendor someone can recommend?

If you really must use solderless breadboards, the BusBoard brand sold by Jameco are good.  Global Specialties' breadboards used to be good, but I see they're all made in China now.  The problem with the Chinese ones is they don't use the right material and shape of the little contacts inside, so connections do not remain dependable.  For the last 40 years, I've only used the American-made ones with a lifetime warranty, and have never had contact problems with them.

Notice I said "solderless" above.  Usually when people say "breadboard," they're thinking of these solderless plug-in type; but there are soldered ones too, as I show at the bottom of the custom-PCBs page of the 6502 primer.  One use of these is to prototype something with the solderless type, and once it's working, transfer it to the solder-type to make it more permanent and not risk accidentally pulling a wire out and then wondering where it came from.  I do a lot of analog stuff where often five holes in a row is not enough, and I like the fact that I can put two component leads in a single hole, or sometimes even three leads in a hole, something you cannot do with the solderless ones.

Using breadboards to make computers brings some failure rate.  Most builders will see their creations work; but if just a few have problems due to inductance inductance of long connections (which has nothing to do with the resistance of the contacts), that's a few too many, and those builders will have a lot of frustration we would rather help them avoid.  Part of what can be so frustrating is that they'll spend hours tracing out their connections only to verify that schematically they got it all correct, but a design proven elsewhere still doesn't work.  Be sure to follow the recommendations in the first seven paragraphs of the AC-performance page of the 6502 primer.  I must reiterate that so many think, "I'm only doing 1MHz; it's gotta work!" but it's not the MHz that kills you!  It's the speed at which a line transitions from a 1 to a 0, or vice-versa, measured in nanoseconds, especially in clock signals.  The ground system is at least as critical, if not more so, and as Jeff said, "It's best to avoid thinking of the Power & Ground Distribution network as something for connecting the chips to the power supply.  Where high frequencies are concerned [ie, the slew rates, not the clock rate! —GW], its real job is to connect the chips to one another" (for the signals' return current).

[BigDumbDinosaur]

paritybit wrote:

I'm in US and looking for some recommendations on various sized breadboards to play with. I've heard bad things on the likes of aliexpress and such.

Any reasonably priced good ones / links or vendor someone can recommend?

I have never used a solderless breadboard for any kind of digital work.  As Garth notes, lead inductance can quickly get out of hand and result in a DOA unit.  It can be done, but requires meticulous work to control lead lengths.  You will need to tread cautiously and also be realistic about complexity, especially on a first build.

[Paganini]

GARTHWILSON wrote:

If you really must use solderless breadboards, the BusBoard brand sold by Jameco are good

BusBoard Prototype Systems sells their breadboards through many vendors. You can get them on Amazon or other places, including Jameco. Jameco also sells their own house brand, which are also pretty good, but have some non-standard features that can make some uses problematic (if you want to power them with those little "Bread Board Power PCB" doodads, or if you want to try to mix them with breadboards from other vendors). Like almost every other breadboard, BusBoard and Jameco breadboards are manufactured in China. However, they are of a much higher standard of quality than those cheap counterfeit ones you can get on AliExpress for 83 cents.

I personally switched to Twin Industries Hi Temperature breadboards for solderless breadboard projects. They are *very* high quality, and I like the round holes. They also don't cost any more than the BusBoard or Jameco ones.

Quote:

Global Specialties' breadboards used to be good, but I see they're all made in China now.  The problem with the Chinese ones is they don't use the right material and shape of the little contacts inside, so connections do not remain dependable.  For the last 40 years, I've only used the American-made ones with a lifetime warranty, and have never had contact problems with them.

[Dr Jefyll]

I don't often use breadboards, but what I chose and have been happy with are the ones from Twin Industries. (They're rcommended by Radical Brad, and that's good enough for me!)

And yes for a trifling extra cost I opted for the high temperature version. Occasionally I find it expedient to solder onto a component lead that's already inserted in the board, and I would hesitate to try that with an ordinary board.

-- Jeff

[DMartens]

Very late to the breadboard vs wire-wrapping topic ... but still.
I always decide which option to use based on two factors: Is it analog or digital? And is the circuit experimental or final?

Analog vs digital circuits:
Breadboard can be used for both analog and digital work at modest frequencies (up to a few MHz).
Wire-wrapping analog circuits is not so recommended. The leads of resistors, capacitors, transistors ... are mostly round so a dab of solder is needed (see Reliability section below). So possible but breadboards are easier for this.
For digital work, wire-wrapping is perfect. At least 5 times higher frequencies (up to 20 MHz) and even more with careful routing and attention to other details (same applies to breadboards of course).

Experiments vs implement final design:
If I am experimenting, testing circuit ideas, trying proof-of-concepts, understanding other people's designs, generally "playing around", I will go with breadboards because wiring changes and constant doing/undoing of wires is much faster and easier and convenient in breadboards.
But if the design is (nearly) complete and final, e.g. implementing an existing and tested design, wire-wrapping is no doubt the way to go. After a learning curve of a few days, wire-wrapping will take only around 25% to 50% longer. As an example: the 65816 SBC in pics 1 and 2, took me around 15 hours to complete (3 evenings of 5 after-work hours).

Costs:
One-off tool costs are: 1) manual wrapping/unwrapping combo tool with built-in stripper (looks like screwdriver) and 2) wire cutter. Total less than $20.
Recurring consumables: 5 color reels of 100ft of "proper" kynar AWG30 wire are $50 but they will last you for several projects. I also bought 8-in-1 reels of non-kynar wires for less than $10. So wires are similar in price to 22AWG breadboard wires.
Finally and most importantly: the IC sockets. They are special. They are not always easy to get. And they are expensive. Even several times more than the sockets with turned pins. The wire-wrap sockets have long pins and MUST have square cross-section. Because that is where the reliability comes from. You can however (at the expensive of time) make cheap DIY versions by soldering square male header pins next to regular sockets to achieve the same (see pic 3).

Reliability:
For me, its rock-solid reliability is probably the main reason why I use it for "final" designs. Your design/circuit will not fail because of a loose wire or bad connection. Run your fingers over the wires, drop your board on the floor, throw it during transport ... Just apply power and you are back in business. I know. I brought my wire-wrapped version of Ben Eater's "8 bit breadboard computer" (see pic 4) from Australia to Europe and threw it in my suitcase along with my clothes. Powered up 1st time upon arrival. Try that with a breadboard .
Also note how much more dense the design can be: the 8"x12" board can accommodates nearly 100 standard TTL/CMOS ICs. And that is with some real-estate taken up by the DIY sockets. Use proper ones could have brought the total count above 100.
And it is as reliable as having a PCB made.

[barnacle]

Have I mentioned Verowire? https://verotl.com/catalog/category/vie ... ies/id/28/

RS carry the pens though I can't find the combs or replacement spools; none of the other usual suspects mention it.

It's an enameled wire which melts its enamel at soldering temperatures. You wrap the start of the link, solder it, manage your route on the comb (optional but recommended), wrap around the next pin, solder that, and repeat until you get to the end of the run. Makes things like address or data busses a doddle. I used it very successfully in the past and it's a lot cheaper than wire-wrap - and it can make equally dense circuits without requiring special sockets (or indeed, any sockets at all, if you're confident!)

Neil

[plasmo]

I remember used something like verowire when I was teenager tinkering with electronics. It was thin wire with special enamel that melt when heated with solder gun. I can't find verowire seller here in USA. Maybe I can find the 50-year old spool of wire somewhere in my garage...
Bill

[BigEd]

I think Vero is a trademark, so perhaps search for "solderable enamel wire" or "wiring pencil" and see which keywords lurk close by.

Roadrunner is a similar trademark, and I see they sell "wire distribution strips" which is the kind of plastic comb that's handy for wire management.

Quote:

Wire Distribution Strips in UK – also referred to as Roadrunner® Strips, castellated strips, wiring combes, wiring pen combes, wiring channels, or wiring guides, are used to route and support the wiring in position

[GARTHWILSON]

BigEd wrote:

I think Vero is a trademark, so perhaps search for "solderable enamel wire" or "wiring pencil" and see which keywords lurk close by.

I have Vero Electronics' '97-'98 inch-thick catalog in front of me.  It's beautiful, with color photographs on nearly every page.  It must have cost them a fortune to get these printed up, and I've hardly opened it.  I probably got it at a trade show.  The prototyping section does have a lot of prototyping boards, which look a lot like Vector's boards, plus Verowire and Speedwire supplies.  I remember another one that looked like enameled wires stuck down to the board by something like varnish, at angles that were multiples of 45°, apparently applied by machine, for when rise times were slower and boards with lots of layers were more expensive than setting up a program to do small quantities of these.  The name "Stitchwire" comes to mind, but that might not be accurate.  I might find it if I comb through my collection of old catalogs.

[barnacle]

Vero are probably most famous for veroboard: 0.1" centre holes with parallel copper strips joining them. And perhaps also for some of the best 19" rack mounting systems at the time... they still do both, but I feel their prices are, um, less than competitive.

Roadrunner used a special PCB with little turrets on the bottom side; a matching socket at each point on the top side and IDC gaps in the turrets. That just pushed the wire into the IDC slot, very fast to make, but the boards were stupid expensive.

Though I now note that Roadrunner is still going strong, but now offering wiring pencils similar to verowire (and somewhat cheaper): https://roadrunnerelectronics.com/wirin ... ring-pens/ The wiring guides they offer are twice the price of the verowire combs (but available in smaller quantities)

Neil

[Paganini]

barnacle wrote:

It's an enameled wire which melts its enamel at soldering temperatures. You wrap the start of the link, solder it, manage your route on the comb (optional but recommended), wrap around the next pin, solder that, and repeat until you get to the end of the run. Makes things like address or data busses a doddle. I used it very successfully in the past and it's a lot cheaper than wire-wrap - and it can make equally dense circuits without requiring special sockets (or indeed, any sockets at all, if you're confident!)

Neil

These days hobbyists do this with magnet wire. There are two kinds of magnet wire, and one of them has the enamel that easily melts when you solder it, the other one... doesn't. Make sure you get the right one if you want to try this! (I wanted to try this, so I made a wiring pen and bought the wrong kind of wire a year or so ago. I really like that wire, but it does not work for this kind of thing! )

[paritybit]

Wow .. sage advice from such an experienced group. Thanks all ... had no idea a "simple" question would get into such detail ... but I love it.

Yes, my original question was about solderless breadboards

Being new at this (and maybe foolish), looking for some quick fun, I'd have to characterize my initial interest between "experiments", all digital, cost conscience, "1mhz", and convenience. I'm also planning to play with a Pi Pico trying to interface to existing 6502. The examples I'm studying have low part count ... and I can practice keeping everything short. I'd like to get to simple PCB production but have a bunch of learning to do.

[barnacle]

If you do decide to use soldered breadboards, you are welcome to the gerbers for the one I recently designed here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7910

Neil