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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:40 am 
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Not a serious topic but just for my interest.

Has anyone used either the W65C265S or W65C134S? The W65C265S is particularly interesting because it has the 24 address lines de-multiplexed already. The built in UARTs and monitor are also pretty cool.

What is the fastest frequency these ICs have been run at? The official 8MHz is a bit underwhelming.

Kind of curious because the W65C265S seems like it was almost the perfect 65c816 but then missed and added a bunch of features and price I'm not keen on.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:14 am 
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I haven't used them yet, but I am making a project around the '134. I will happily report on progress - including speeds - as I proceed.

However, it appears the '134 comes in both 8 and 14 MHz variants:
https://www.mouser.co.uk/c/?q=955-W65C134S8PLG-14

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:26 am 
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The S8 in the part number doesn't augur well for overclocking. I believe it refers to the semiconductor fabrication process used (0.8um). The latest 65C02 and 65C816 devices are S6 (0.6um) and they can be overclocked to nearly 30MHz (I think someone had one running at 29.5MHz). The S8 versions don't go much above 14MHz.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:36 am 
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kernelthread wrote:
The latest 65C02 and 65C816 devices are S6 (0.6um) and they can be overclocked to nearly 30MHz (I think someone had one running at 29.5MHz).

plasmo got 40MHz. See the last few lines at viewtopic.php?p=85784#p85784 .

Bill Mensch asked me over lunch why hobbyists aren't picking up the 65265 much, and I said it was undoubtedly largely because the speed rating is so much lower. He responded, "Well, it may very well go a lot faster, but we just never tried it." I don't understand that logic, since hiding virtues is not the way to make sales. Maybe plasmo or someone will tell us what it can really do.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:48 am 
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40MHz - even better! Anyone know how fast they can go at 3.3V ?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:18 am 
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Hmm if these chips can reliably run at 20MHz I might consider one for the next generation of my SBC, saving myself the VIA and the Demuxing circuit (and assuming the UART isn't bugged I can replace the FT240X with an FT232). Though I'll have to check the datasheet and see if it has all the features I want/need. Useful would be built in SPI and I2C like almost all other microcontrollers have.

kernelthread wrote:
40MHz - even better! Anyone know how fast they can go at 3.3V ?

I was able reach around 18-19MHz with the PLCC version of the 65c816 directly connected to an FPGA. Maybe I lost the silicon lottery, or they just can't really reach ~20MHz at 3.3V.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:05 pm 
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kernelthread wrote:
40MHz - even better! Anyone know how fast they can go at 3.3V ?

I ran a quick test this morning and edited this post to show 22MHz is achievable at 3.3V with CRC65.
Bill

PS, 40Mhz operation is possible with just CPU, ROM, and clock. For real world systems with I/O, RAM, and other loads, 30MHz may be the top speed.
PPS, Jameco has W65C02 for $6.95 each so I bought 10 of them last week. The W6502 is from that batch. The IC marking is: W65C02S6TPG-14


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:15 pm 
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plasmo wrote:
I ran a quick test this morning and edited this post to show 22MHz is achievable at 3.3V with CRC65.
Bill


Thanks for the info. Is that using the same RAM device as in the photograph? That shows a CY7C109-25VC device, which is specced for 25ns access time at 5V +/- 10%. So it might go faster with a 10ns RAM (or even an 8ns RAM - you can get those at 3.3V).


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:11 pm 
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CY7C109-25VC is the RAM on the board being tested at various voltage level so a faster RAM should help with the low-voltage performance since it is RAM test failure that set the limit. I did purchased and tried 10ns version of CY7C109, but the results were mixed. I think the 10nS RAM was too fast and pc board was not designed with proper impedance control so it was "flaky" and actually perform much better at lower voltage, around 4.75V or so. Hmmm, I should try again...
Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:26 pm 
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Alarm Siren wrote:
I haven't used them yet, but I am making a project around the '134. I will happily report on progress - including speeds - as I proceed.

However, it appears the '134 comes in both 8 and 14 MHz variants:
https://www.mouser.co.uk/c/?q=955-W65C134S8PLG-14
Cool thanks. I've only really looked at the '265 so I hadn't realised there was a 14MHz version of the '134. I checked Mouser and it seems the -14 is the only variant they stock. Looking forward to seeing what can be done with it!

plasmo wrote:
CY7C109-25VC is the RAM on the board being tested at various voltage level so a faster RAM should help with the low-voltage performance since it is RAM test failure that set the limit. I did purchase and tried 10ns version of CY7C109, but the results were mixed. I think the 10nS RAM was too fast and pc board was not designed with proper impedance control so it was "flaky" and actually perform much better at lower voltage, around 4.75V or so. Hmmm, I should try again...
I've been thinking about making my life easier by reducing the component count, and getting rid of level shifters would help a bit. So funnily enough I've been wandering if I should test the 65c816 at 3.3V and see if I can run it at (my target) 20Mhz. I'd kinda assumed it wouldn't so it's way down my todo list but it's good to see it does manage it.

Thanks all!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:13 pm 
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kernelthread wrote:
The S8 in the part number doesn't augur well for overclocking. I believe it refers to the semiconductor fabrication process used (0.8um).

Correct.

Furthermore, devices with a ‘T’ after the geometry size, e.g., ‘S6T’ for a 0.6µ device, have cores made from TSMC wafers, which seem on average to be able to run faster at any given voltage than the older product made from Sanyo wafers.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:16 pm 
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GARTHWILSON wrote:
Bill Mensch asked me over lunch why hobbyists aren't picking up the 65265 much, and I said it was undoubtedly largely because the speed rating is so much lower.

Not helping any is the 65C256 and 65C134 are a relatively inflexible design when compared to the competition.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:23 pm 
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Proxy wrote:
Useful would be built in SPI and I2C like almost all other microcontrollers have.

The little MyMENSCH SBCs do have I²C, SPI, and A/D converters.
https://wdc65xx.com/Single-Board-Computers

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:49 pm 
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I'm using the W65C134 in my design for three reasons:
  • As a microcontroller, it saves board space and cost by essentially combining (at minimum) the actual CPU core, a VIA and a UART and some glue logic into one package.
  • The built-in monitor ROM solves the issue of how to initially program my boot ROMs, given that I can't get non-SMD ROMs that work at 3.3V at the moment in the UK (thanks a bunch, chip shortage!)
  • As versus other common microcontrollers, it is very simple for me to enable the device to load and execute arbitrary programs without the user actually having to reflash the whole device - something I consider a 'no-no' for my use case as it would be too technical a process

The downside is that there are some, in my opinion, braindead decisions that make it much harder to work with and/or necessitate a certain design as versus the flexibility of discrete CPU and peripheral chips.

For example: Bypassing the monitor ROM requires that you're either (1) willing and able to put your boot ROM at 0x0200 or 0x8000 (or can otherwise manuveure your ROM to those locations temporarily during boot), or (2) that you are willing and able to add complexity to your hardware design so that it can cope with the quirks of booting into Emulation mode (even if you subsequently switch out of emulation mode, you have to be able to deal with it initially as it changes the behaviour of key control signals).

Example 2: The built-in chip select decode circuitry is nice, but it is relatively inflexible in that using it forces you to make certain choices - e.g. CS7 covers the whole of the upper 32K of the address space: so if you want to have a smaller 8K ROM and fill the rest with RAM, you'd better be prepared to add extra decoding logic, which defeats the point of having the built-in chip selects. Plus you can't totally ignore the chip selects, because you need to know when the '134 is trying to access external memory or not and the only way to know that for certain is by looking at the chip selects (often you could figure this out from the address bus alone, but in emulation mode or certain CS configurations this is not true) .

Example 3: I appreciate its an old design but, as others have mentioned, the absence of SPI and I2C in hardware is unfortunate. Or even a simple hardware shift register like the one in the VIA would at least help in software implementation of SPI. The UART not having any FIFOs is also a pity.

The W65C256S is even scarier than the '134; it has many of the same problems and a whole bunch of extra stuff that makes it even more complicated to use, and like the '134 most of it is poorly documented.

For my use case, the MyMENSCHs are irrelevant. I can't use them in my product because they're not actual chips, they're FPGAs on a huge PCB. Now, if I could get the VHDL code and load it into my own FPGA then maybe that'd be better, as then I could tweak it to suit my needs and add extra peripherals as needed, but I doubt they'll give me the VHDL without a lot of money passing hands.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:01 am 
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Alarm Siren wrote:
For my use case, the MyMENSCHs are irrelevant. I can't use them in my product because they're not actual chips, they're FPGAs on a huge PCB.

Are you looking at the right boards? They're 1.5"x2.75", taking not much more space than a 68000 with 64 pins on .900" row centers, and being far more complete than the 68000 which is just a processor.

I haven't used one yet, but I'm interested, as the FPGA comes with WDC's programming so I don't have to mess with the HDL.

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