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WDC "financial support" for a freeware C compiler
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:35 pm
by Euphoric
I haven't found any freeware C compiler for the 65816, and there does not seem to be a lot of commercial C compiler for this target too (Avocet's ADC 2500AD C Compiler seems to be the only one, am I right ?).
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So I'm currently finishing one along the lines of my previous lcc65 compiler, and it rocks ! Strangely, lcc65 is not well known among 6502 users, despite the fact it generates better code than cc65, and correctly handle floats and integers (this is not true with cc65). Maybe this is because I wrote it for the Oric platform, which is less known than Ataris and Commodore platform, so it lacks libraries for non-Oric platforms.
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Ok, so, here is my question, maybe Mike could forward it to WDC...
Wouldn't it be a plus for WDC to say there's at least one excellent freeware C compiler for their 65816 processor, supported by the 6502.org community ? Then, would they agree to support the development of this compiler, for example by providing some free processor or board samples to the community ? (I would love some 65802 parts
)
Fabrice
Re: WDC "financial support" for a freeware C compi
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 8:20 pm
by Mike Naberezny
Ok, so, here is my question, maybe Mike could forward it to WDC...
Wouldn't it be a plus for WDC to say there's at least one excellent freeware C compiler for their 65816 processor, supported by the 6502.org community ? Then, would they agree to support the development of this compiler, for example by providing some free processor or board samples to the community ? (I would love some 65802 parts
)
Fabrice
Hi Fabrice,
First, I'll have to preface by saying that 6502.org has no real affiliation with WDC. We do have a relationship with them now, from ordering so many chips on the behalf of 6502.org visitors, however 6502.org remains a completely separate, non-profit entity. I managed to get better "distributor" pricing for us but our relationship with WDC is really as a customer.
I think that having a C compiler for the 65C816 is a great thing and I can offer to support it as much as possible through the 6502.org website.
I've asked on more than one occasion about the possibility of obtaining any 65C802 chips even though they are long out of production. Unforuntately, after repeated attempts I have to say that I do not think this is possible but I will probably ask again. I think the best plan for people seeking the 65C802 would be to participate in the adapter daughterboard design that's going on in the other thread.
Best Regards,
Mike
Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 8:33 pm
by bogax
http://sweetcherrie.com/jos/lcc.html
also mention of one here:
http://www.npsnet.com/danf/cbm/cross-development.html
under the name lcc816
(don't know if it's free,or even available)
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:12 pm
by Euphoric
Excellent, these pages didn't appear when I tried a Google search.
Well, it's a good thing, at least there's some competition
I can see that the second page has a link to my first experiment with LCC backends (7 years ago ?), improving Ian Stephenson's 32 bit back-end for the 6502 ("a 6502 emulating a VAX").
A lot of water has flowed since : several years ago, I wrote a completely new LCC backend for the 6502, taking advantage of the 6502 addressing modes. This is what I call lcc65, an old version for the Oric is available here :
http://oric.free.fr/software.html
but the latest versions are now integrated in the OSDK (Oric Software Development Kit), that can be downloaded here :
http://www.defence-force.org/computing/ ... /index.htm
(you will also notice at the end of the first page, the presumably only one GCC for the 65C02 (yes, Gnu C)).
Ok, so, it seems it's time for some comparative review. Who wants to benchmark lcc65 .vs. cc65 .vs. gcc65 .vs. icc6502 (from IAR's embedded workbench) ? I would gladly do it, but I could be taxed of partiality (e.g exhibiting some cc65 bugs
)
Ok, bugs and floats apart (lcc65 has support for floats, unlike most of the other compilers), benchmarks for the quality of code could be interesting (time and space issues). E.g: the simple eratosthene sieve benchmark
Code: Select all
#define SIZE 10000
char flags[SIZE];
main()
{
int i, prime, k, count=0;
for(i=0;i<size;i++)
if (!flags[i]) {
prime = i + i + 3;
for (k=i+prime; k<size ; k+=prime) flags[k]=1;
count++;
}
printf("\n%d primes :\n", count);
}
runs in 5.62" on the Oric platform when compiled with cc65 -O -Oir, and 4.89" when compiled with lcc65 -O3. Such black box benchmarks might not be enough for a precise comparative review, and not easy to run on the same platform. So, a deeper look at the generated assembly code could be necessary for a stronger review. Anyone interested ?
Cheers to all,
Fabrice
PS: here is an example of what my new 65802 generator is able to generate:
http://oric.free.fr/COMPILERS/test1.txt
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:25 pm
by Euphoric
First, I'll have to preface by saying that 6502.org has no real affiliation with WDC. We do have a relationship with them now, from ordering so many chips on the behalf of 6502.org visitors, however 6502.org remains a completely separate, non-profit entity. I managed to get better "distributor" pricing for us but our relationship with WDC is really as a customer.
I do know that, Mike, and Garth was telling me privately that WDC has some balanced judgement about the 6502.org community (part of it carrying an image of nostalgic users of an "old" chip, which is not always good for business).
I've asked on more than one occasion about the possibility of obtaining any 65C802 chips even though they are long out of production. Unforuntately, after repeated attempts I have to say that I do not think this is possible but I will probably ask again. I think the best plan for people seeking the 65C802 would be to participate in the adapter daughterboard design that's going on in the other thread.
That's right. I'm eagerly waiting for a "mass production" of this module. I surely lack some patience, excuse-me for that
Cheers,
Fabrice
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:04 pm
by Euphoric
and even two, with WDC's own one, which I discovered when parsing this list (I thought they only had one for the W65C02). It is advertized here:
http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/comp816s.html
Ok, so my initial question has no chance of being appreciated by WDC
Sorry for having cluttered the forum...
Fabrice
WDC & Small Orders
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:09 am
by Mike Naberezny
I do know that, Mike, and Garth was telling me privately that WDC has some balanced judgement about the 6502.org community (part of it carrying an image of nostalgic users of an "old" chip, which is not always good for business).
I think that I have developed a pretty fair relationship with them because I generally order a large number of parts and also buffer them from small orders.
However, you are right in the sense that, like most companies, they tend to shy away from hobbyists and small orders. Their reluctance to deal with small orders (and their minimum order restriction) is what prompted me to organize the bulk orders and then "distribute" the parts on an ongoing basis.
Back to the C topic, I think that a thorough review and comparison of the different C compiler options for both the '02 and '816 is a really good idea. I would be very interested in putting something like this on 6502.org if it could be organized.
Best Regards,
Mike
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:19 am
by Nightmaretony
Now, if only someone can revampe Bytework's Orca C compiler which wads for the Apple ][ GS....
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 12:31 am
by TMorita
I'm the one who did the lcc816 package.
I sent it to Mike to put up for download, but I didn't see it show up in the downloads section ... what happened to it Mike?
Toshi
LCC816
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:26 am
by Mike Naberezny
I sent it to Mike to put up for download, but I didn't see it show up in the downloads section ... what happened to it Mike?
Hi,
Sorry. I will get it up shortly.
Thanks,
Mike
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:58 am
by Euphoric
I've improved my 65802 generator again, it now uses the D register to implement "shifting registers" somewhat like the Sparc architecture...
Have a look at the small examples above, it's hard to do better...
I will release it once I have improved the floating point handling...
Best regards,
Fabrice
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:31 pm
by BigEd
Hi Fabrice
any chance of a look at your lcc65 with '802 backend? Even if not finished!
Cheers
Ed
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:23 pm
by 8BIT
Wow. I had forgotten about this thread.
I would be interested in building a library for my SBC-3. I have downloaded the OSDK and will try to see what it will take. Any advice on where to start would be helpful.
thanks
Daryl
Re: WDC "financial support" for a freeware C compi
Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:02 am
by BigEd
I haven't found any freeware C compiler for the 65816...
Fabrice
Ulrich Hecht recently made some optimisation improvements to the C compiler in his
Snes SDK Toolchain (only targets the 65816)
Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:14 pm
by kc5tja
I think that if lcc816 can be retargeted to use the ca65 and/or xa65 assemblers, it'll gain a much wider acceptance in the community. ca65, in particular, is an embedded coder's dream, as you can specify where things go by, basically, writing a text file with a memory map in it. I picked ca65 for my Kestrel environment after reviewing several other 65816 assemblers, judged on ease of use, syntax, etc.