Help with reading NAND chips on a breadboard

[L0uis.m]

Hello 0010 all,

In my days, LS and CMOS were used mixed together.

So, what about using HC/HCT for those in direct contact with W65C02, and using LS (or other) where not directly connected to W65C02

[BigDumbDinosaur]

WCMiller wrote:

I've got it solved; the issue was the A16 pin was plugged into the ground rail, but for some reason it wasn't making connection.

I can’t begin to count how many times someone has asked for help, only to discover they are a victim of a bad connection on a breadboard.

[BigDumbDinosaur]

L0uis.m wrote:

I (sic) my days, LS and CMOS were used mixed together.

That will work if CMOS is driving LS.  LS driving CMOS is asking for trouble.

Quote:

So, what about using HC/HCT for those in direct contact with W65C02, and using LS (or other) where not directly connected to W65C02?

Why use LS at all?  What are you trying to accomplish by swimming against the tide?

[barnacle]

Indeed. I have redesigned complete circuits because critical parts were only available in LS or older technologies. It's slow and it's power hungry and offers little options in terms of operating voltage. Though it is a shame sometimes that not all the older multi-input gates are no longer available in HC and friends.

WCMiller, congratulations on finding the issue. Hopefully the discussion above has helped in general terms too. I hate breadboards with a passion, to the extent of having designed a replacement which requires you to solder the chips and links in place; if you find it interesting I can post the Gerbers so you can make one yourself.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7910&hilit=breadboard

Neil

[BigDumbDinosaur]

barnacle wrote:

Indeed. I have redesigned complete circuits because critical parts were only available in LS or older technologies. It's slow and it's power hungry and offers little options in terms of operating voltage.

Then there is the poor noise immunity and weak fanout...

Quote:

Though it is a shame sometimes that not all the older multi-input gates are no longer available in HC and friends.

On the other hand, we have PLDs, which are inexpensive, fast, reconfigurable and can do lots of things that were problematic with individual gates.  Most of the useful gates have been respun in 74AHC and some of the other low-power CMOS processes, so it’s still possible to design with “traditional” parts in many cases.

Quote:

I hate breadboards with a passion...

I used them a few times in the distant past, but found I could solder up something on perf board nearly as quickly...and without have to debug here-today, gone-tomorrow connections.

When I did POC V1.0 (nearly 16 years ago!), I went directly to PCB.  It almost worked on the first try. 

[L0uis.m]

Hello BDD,

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:

Why use LS at all?  What are you trying to accomplish by swimming against the tide?

I still have lots of TTL, LS and CMOS from over thirty years ago. My friend and me had a tiny company where we used that kind of ICs.
I like to do some prototype tinkering with it, before I buy lots of expensive new ICs and then find out it doesn't work and I need different ICs.

[WCMiller]

barnacle wrote:

WCMiller, congratulations on finding the issue. Hopefully the discussion above has helped in general terms too. I hate breadboards with a passion, to the extent of having designed a replacement which requires you to solder the chips and links in place; if you find it interesting I can post the Gerbers so you can make one yourself.

I'm getting that impression on breadboards, and your PCBs look pretty interesting. Sadly, I'll be needing to 1) buy some soldering equipment 2) learn to solder before I could use them. So struggling with breadboards is probably what my future holds for at least a while. Now to get back to the actual thing I was trying to build before this ROM detour derailed me...

[barnacle]

Heh. Soldering is one of those things that's so simple you don't even thing about it, when you've been doing it for sixty years There are loads of tutorials on YouTube.

And while Amazon carries the big name professional irons like Weller and Hakko, there are also plenty of cheap and cheerful irons, some under ten bucks. I'd certainly consider them.

Otherwise, you're likely to have this problem with everything you build. While it is certainly possible to build working systems on breadboards, you are going to have to buzz out every wire to ensure that it goes where you want it to and makes a connection - that is, do the measurement on the pins of the ICs, not just looking at where the wires are.

Neil

p.s. know where the name comes from? Back in the early days of amateur radio, you might need to mount a valve (tube) and a handful of other components to make a receiver. So you (you were almost certainly a man, at the time) either got a convenient plank from your shed/workshop, banged a few nails in strategic places, and soldered to those nails. Or you risked your wife/mother's wrath by using that convenient slab of wood usually under a loaf of bread in the kitchen...

[BigDumbDinosaur]

barnacle wrote:

Or you risked your wife/mother's wrath by using that convenient slab of wood usually under a loaf of bread in the kitchen...

My “uncle” (he wasn’t an actual relative) who initially taught me about electronics once told me that very same story.  In the (many) years since, I have futilely tried to corroborate that story.  But it sounds as good as any. 

[BigDumbDinosaur]

WCMiller wrote:

I'm getting that impression on breadboards...

I avoid those things like a mouse avoiding a cat.

Quote:

Sadly, I'll be needing to 1) buy some soldering equipment 2) learn to solder before I could use them. So struggling with breadboards is probably what my future holds for at least a while.

Be careful to double-check all your connections before you power anything on a breadboard.  At best, a squirrelly connection will drive you nuts.  At worst, it could result in damage to a chip.

As for soldering, that is as basic a skill to electronics as is boiling a pot of water is to cooking.  As Neil said, you don’t have to go big bucks with soldering equipment.  A decent, temperature-controlled station can be had for reasonable money.  For a long time, I didn’t even have one—just my 40-watt Weller with a small tip.

Speaking of Weller, brand-name is good, but not essential.  Just read up on reviews and you’ll soon know whose product to avoid.

[GARTHWILSON]

I've only used the American-made breadboards with a lifetime warranty.  I've been using the same ones for decades, and never had a problem with connection quality.  I know however (I can't remember where this information came from) that the Chinese ones don't use the correct materials or shape of contacts, and they're problematic.  Even if you do have good connection quality though, using breadboards for any kind of circuit with fast edge rates is inviting trouble, primarily because of the unwanted inductance of connections that will be longer than other construction methods, and next, the capacitance between contact rows can sometimes be a problem.  The first time I tried to make a switching power supply, which was in 1993, it made terrible electrical noise, because I did it on a solderless breadboard.  The switching frequency was only 170kHz; but the di/dt's (rate of change of current versus time) of the edges was so high.  I only use solderless breadboards for audio and low-frequency control circuits, not computer construction.

The one thing beginners usually miss in soldering is that the parts you're soldering together have to both get up above the melting temperature of the solder; so you need to apply the heat to the parts, and when they're up to temperature, apply the solder.  My dad used to ask me to repair one thing or another, not electronic, by soldering, but things that would be damaged by the heat, and he would say, "Can't you just drip a drop of solder onto it?" and I had to explain again that no, it won't stick that way.  It does not work the same way glue does.

You don't need an expensive soldering station though.  I've never used a temperature-controlled one, myself.  A couple of years ago Weller seemed to be discontinuing the soldering iron I like and use, so I bought several heating elements, tips, and an extra handle, while Mouser still had them in stock.

And, BTW, don't worry about damaging semiconductors with excess soldering heat.  At a place I worked in the mid-1980's, I saw power transistors actually working, producing hundreds of watts of output, while at over 350°C (660°F).  How far over, I don't know, because I was not allowed to get calibration data on the infrared microscope above that.  Sure, they wouldn't have lasted long, but it did not suddenly destroy them.  If you solder IC one lead at a time, even with a 900°F soldering tip, you won't get the actual die (chip) inside up to harmful temperatures.

[gilhad]

I bought few years ago this one (KSGER T12) and I am really happy with it https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32945257770.html (~50$) - I use mainly D12 and ILS tips and temperature 240C. The posibility to temporary boost it by 100C (can be set to any value) with one touch for a minute (also customable) is really convenient for me. I had one homemade before, cheap and constant set values and I was satisfied with that, until I bought this one and found it to be another world

(Do not take me seriously, I am not American and I learned many thing just myself by "try and fail" for hobby, so probabely anyone else here would have much better knowledge than me. Also my view of correctness is way more "relaxed". )

But nearly anything should be good for beginer to start. Even ~5$ pen is better than nothing and can be used somehow.

(And for fun and bet I even used this http://micro-corner.gilhad.cz/blog/2020 ... anici.html but I would strongly argue against that - it was just for bet "what can be done" - sorry, only czech page, but the pictures say it all - do NOT use something like that But even this are still better connections, than what breadboards offers.)

[BigDumbDinosaur]

GARTHWILSON wrote:

You don't need an expensive soldering station though.  I've never used a temperature-controlled one, myself.

For a very long time, I didn’t have one as well.  When my really ancient 40-watt Weller finally gave up the ghost after over four decades of almost-daily use, I got a temperature-controlled station with a few bells and whistles, thinking “why not”.  I didn’t need one, but as it turned out, it was a useful acquisition.

The main feature the station has, aside from quick and easy temperature changes, is the timer function, which dials back the temperature after so many minutes of inactivity.  For most of my work, I have the unit set to 425° C (≈800° F), which is a good balance between rapid heating of the parts and not ruining a PCB.  After a half-hour, the unit reduces the temperature to 150° C (≈300° F, also adjustable), which helps to preserve the tip and the iron’s heating element.  A press of a button immediately brings the iron back up to temperature.

I don’t consider a temperature-controlled station a mandatory piece of gear, but recommend purchasing one if your budget will allow it.  The ability to reduce the temperature in between sessions does wonders for tip life.  You might save enough money on new tips to amortize the cost of the station. 

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And, BTW, don't worry about damaging semiconductors with excess soldering heat.

Yep!  The silicon die itself can tolerate surprisingly-high temperatures.  The limit on heating is more the temperature at which either the internal connections fracture from too much expansion or the plastic package starts to melt.  I have never damaged an IC or a silicon semiconductor by soldering.  I did wreck a germanium transistor one time, but how often do you run into those anymore?

[GARTHWILSON]

Yeah, the tip life has become an issue now with RoHS.  I should have bought a bunch of non-RoHS (RoHS="restriction of hazardous substances") tips while they were still available, because the RoHS ones sure don't last like the older ones did.  I have to be more careful to keep solder on the tip while it's idling, so the oxygen can't get to it.  Turning the temperature down when idling is a good idea though.

[BigDumbDinosaur]

GARTHWILSON wrote:

Yeah, the tip life has become an issue now with RoHS.  I should have bought a bunch of non-RoHS (RoHS="restriction of hazardous substances") tips while they were still available, because the RoHS ones sure don't last like the older ones did.

Like many other “do-gooder” ideas, RoHS created new problems to take the place of the old problems.  Ever since the industry went with RoHS, there has been an uptick in failure rates with electronic assemblies.  While the higher reflow temperatures required with RoHS are possibly aggravating the situation, it seems to be mostly a case of dodgy solder joints causing the trouble.

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I have to be more careful to keep solder on the tip while it's idling, so the oxygen can't get to it.  Turning the temperature down when idling is a good idea though.

On days when I expect to do bench work, I turn on the soldering station in the AM, tin it when it gets up to temperature and then manually set the idle temperature (150° C).  It stays that way until I’m ready to use it—no periodic re-tinning required.  I’ve had the soldering station for five years now and am still using the tip that came with the iron.