6502.org

I am still in a holding pattern while I decide on the tool-chain for this project.

3 Options (in order of preference) remain on the table...

1) Find an easy to use and supported 6502 C compiler that can call Assembly routines.
2) Stick with pure assembly only, which is good for me, but not so good for non assembly freaks.
3) Drop the 6502, and go back to the original design of using any uC as an external cartridge.

Option 1 is my first choice by far, as it keeps to my goals and will make programming a breeze for anyone.
Option 2 would kill the ability to do easy rapid game development for the masses, but keep to my 6502 original goal.
Option 3 would fail my original 6502 goal, but make Vulcan extremely versatile (using a micro-controller as external cartridge).

While I await a response from WDC, can anyone familiar with their WDCTools answer the following?...

How on earth do you purchase a compiler license? The website blocks out the option on the shopping cart.
The price is great, so I would purchase the compiler right now and get this show on the road if I could!

Sometimes the easy things confuse me the most, but I can't see any way to purchase the WDCTools.
I downloaded the software from here, and it installed perfectly, and has all the options I want...

http://65xx.com/Products/WDCTools/

I then managed to find the store after some hunting...

http://wdc65xx.com/products-page-2/65xxtools/

But there is no option to add the Download to the Cart (says Product not in stock).
Now either, I am having dumb-attack, or the server is out of ones and zeros!
Dude, how can a download be out of stock?

I am NOT going back to screw with CC65 ever again, so by the end of this week if I don't have a working C compiler, a choice between option 2 and 3 will be made. The cigar-chugging ghost of Jack Tramiel is threatening to pull the plug on my entire project, so I have to show something soon or face the wrath!

Radical Brad

Since you are a self-professed masochist would you consider a design where one could use any older CPU with an 8-bit data path as an external cartridge?

One implementation of the above idea might be to export a common bus to the external cartridge with a well-defined API allowing whatever processor lived on the cartridge to take advantage of the peripherals provided by the Vulcan74.

Imagine an Intel 8008-based Vulcan74 making an Amiga look bad...

You could of course provide a reference implementation for a 65C02 or whatever other CPU with an 8-bit data bus you fancy.

Exactly!

Because I have made all IO into Vulcan-74 compatible with 6502, any CPU or micro-controller that can handle 25 IO lines can play along.
On an AVR, this would leave 7 IO lines, so it could even talk to it's own SD card to load graphics.
Since IO is setup as a 16 bit address, 8 bit data bus, and a single RW line, it would be easy to adapt anything.
Even an Arduino could pull it off with a latch.

If I go that way, and let the external processor or micro-controller act as a cartridge containing the game logic, then "technically", I have not actually failed my goal of having ONLY 7400 logic and available 80's tech. on the board. There is an advantage to this as well, as ANY uC or mC would work, and ANY language can be used. 6502, 65816, 8088, or newr targets like XMega, ARM, even FPGA.

I am starting to rethink my original goal of using only the 6502 after finding this reply from WDC on this forum...

If this is the case, and somehow I do manage to get a license, I can't really expect to release my project and "hope" that everyone can manage get a license no more than I would put some impossible to find part in the BOM, or expect a normal human to get CC65 working!

On my drive home today, I am going to make a final decision.
This new data has greatly swayed me to Option 3 already.

Oh well, I would have still used the 6502 to make the IO work as it now does.
It's just from here on, it is no longer a "true" 6502 project.
I will have to continue my posts on my own website.

I will report back after tonight's board meeting with Mr.Daniels and Morgan.

Brad

Hey, at least slap in a 6502 and make a video of a demo! The C compiler requirement is surely a step beyond getting the hardware working.

I would certainly continue with the 6502, even choosing the external route.
In fact, I would create optimized assembly routines for 6502, AVR, and PIC, just to get things properly tested.

The only difference would be that the 6502 would "jack" into the Cartridge slot, rather than being bolted to the board.
The more I think about it, the more freedom this would allow.

Brad

So, in effect, the mega-breadboard becomes a memory mapped GPU for 8 bit micros?

Yes. Vulcan-74 would become a 7400 logic based Video Card and Sound Card compatible with any micro-controller or processor and any language.

In essence, I would be revisiting this project I slapped together 10 years ago...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyQP5MmQR7w

In the project shown above, one AVR did Sync Generation and Frame Switching and the other did Sound Generation.
The external uC or mC was just a bunch if "IF THEN" loops doing game logic and calling functions on the board.
Basically, it's the same with Vulcan, except that the entire board is all old-school logic.
And it's powerful as hell, of course!!

I do like the idea of opening up every possible platform and language but at the same time keeping to the original goal of making something wonderful using 1980's technology that is still widely produced and available.

Brad

Even more general than that. You could use it with many microcontrollers, from the humble ATMega to powerhouses like the PIC32MZ family (200 MHz 32-bit MIPS core). Certainly broadens the appeal I should think.

Agreed!

And for those insane enough to want to learn the grass-roots, bare-metal logic stuff... the project does certainly accomplish that!
I tested the 6502 compatible IO system up to 32 MHz, so it can certainly handle a fast target.

Ok, all this yapping has confirmed what I was thinking after smashing my head on the keyboard trying to make CC65 work and now knowing that WDC is hacker shy... EXTERNAL CONTROLLER!!

I shall continue on with the project, but will unplug the 6502 and move it to a carrier board that can be swapped with the AVR for testing.
This also simplifies the "Boot Logic", as the external controller will do its own reset and load sequence from code.

So... decision made.

Now the next questions to users of this fine forum...

Do you want me to continue posting on this project here now that the 6502 is only to be a small part of it?
I do have Vulcan74.com now, but have not had time to start retyping all of this in yet.
When I do the build log on my site, it will have a LOT more detail.

On a side note... odd about the "non-hobbyist" response from WDC, I would have expected the exact opposite!!

Cheers,
Radical Brad

Yes, do keep posting here!

It's heresy, but ...

There's apparently good C compiler options for the Z80, and Z80 also fits your restrictions of still being manufactured in PDIP, and at clock rates up to 20mhz.

I've never been a lover of it, but it is an option.

But surely CC65 must be salvageable?

In any case I'd be totally interested in your Vulcan74 board as a PCB that I could interface to whatever. I'd hook it up to some HD6309s I have lying around.

I'm with BigEd on this one. Please continue to post here since most of us are checking on the progress here already.
At least until you get your own site up and going.

I agree. If the hardware, and the assembly routines are finished, maybe someone else can help with the compiler.

It's still a 6502-compatible peripheral. That's very much fair game.