why EEPROMs when you can just use cheap Flash chips (like the SST39SF040) that can be programmed without any special voltages? that would allow you to update the flash using the 65816 without needing an external programmer or 12V Power supply. (though obviously for the very first time you need an external programmer)

On a side note, since you plan on having an OS on this, what about an RTC and Storage (like an SD card, since they're cheap and easy to interface)?
Just storage is already very useful for loading an OS and programs without needing them to be in the ROM/Flash, /MCU or some external device. An RTC would just be an extra ontop of that.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

Oops my mistake!
Though I wouldn't recommend OTP ROMs for an open system like this, as it will force people to replace the whole ROM IC to update the firmware, which just creates unnecessary E-waste.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

So I was looking around the board, among other things I read that you are octogenarian. Awesome. I also read you are ex navy. You probably know this book better than I ever will






I also read some of your experiments in timing control systems for these devices. I hope to learn all I can from you.

One of those the ngs I learned in college, when I got my bachelor's degree in interdisciplinary studies, while I enjoyed my time in the ivory tower, was that words have different meanings in different areas of study. Consider the word shear, and how it means different things to a graphic designer, a geotechnical engineer and a sheep herder.
If I have somehow trampled a colloquialism, pardon my naivety. I was referring to these old apple docs I'll get you a link to that reference once I'm not on my phone. It refers to these registers in different 'modes'; even eyes and letchy on page 60 talk about addressing modes. I understand the importance of being succinct. While I disagree with Hume on many things, preserving the distinctness of language is something I do find important.

I heard you talk about your "uncle" max. I knew a guy named Howard used to go down Dallas ham meet for parts, he worked for Ti on a chip used for hard drives. He taught me PC repair. You remind me of him. I hope to learn everything I can from you, you GiantGeniusReptile.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

I have been going through your primer, the board, wikipedia etc. I am likely to have an RS-232 adapter, and if there is a PCMCIA adapter, it will work if a driver is made. I am deeply concerned about voltage isolation on this device and how relays and fuses might be used. if off-the-shelf ICs can do this cheaply, maybe it is easier. Im also looking at how big a 9-pin Dsub connector is and I dont think I want one in the slim screen device, maybe the bigger grip unit or if it is one unit there, and its big enough for it.

Gotcha, its TIA-232 now, not a Serial Port or RS-232. Desired as is the 65SIB, likely going on the 'industrial and scientific module/backpack'; point being, Im not sure Im going to focus on this right now, rather the Logic Unit of the system.
I do need to devise a power management system. Rails, fuses, an IC smart controller etc. 1.x probably, 3.3, 5v, 12v and 'up to 20v' for the USB-C connector, is actually a lot of options, and more than I expected or wanted. Being able to spend build up driving voltage with Caps or an IC does open options, I am just aware I have to 'contend with' weird voltages I dont realy want anywhere near my 3.3 and 5 volt microcircuits.


right, one E = Electric, two EEs = Electrically Erasable.
I would not begin to consider myself knowledgeable on the many types of ROM or RAM out there.
I am looking at adding sockets for some ICs. Flashing those might be a thought. For my test bed, Ill use what I can that is convenient, including flash rom on an mcu pretending to be a bios rom or whatever.

in the system, I want the factory to write them, and the user to be able to update them if needed. Or wanted, with their own boot code or whatever.

As we get closer to 'build time', I look at the 65134, and the 65265.
I would like different options for my local 'Logic Unit' I/O. Im opening a thread on the 65xx series chips, and none really seem suitable at first. However, this 'runlevel 0', might be a good choice for headless devices and controllers, or minimal display devices, like a 3d printer. Can a 65134 or 65265 run a 3d printer? an automated watering system for a greenhouse, etc?

Id like my core logic unit, to have very specific things. A 6502 or 65816 and a math co-processor. A primary I/O chip, the 'DART' unit, or dial uart etc, the BIOSYS ROM, and if possible some local dedicated RAM and/or shared VRAM access, maybe a few support chips, like the stuff to bring out the data/address multi-use byte, or the COP hardware for multiprocessing.

For multiprocessing, I seem to have two options, the "Split Clock Dual Core" design, which uses Hi and Lo PHI2, or, a distributed processing model that is more like clustering than multicores. It is possible to do both. I expect to use my 'off cycle' ram access to the GPU, or the PIC. Using a 65134, 65265 or twinning the CPU is still possible.
The GPU may have a CPU bypass, or use dual-port RAM, in our API model however, the GPU runs its own code mostly asynchronously from the CPU and may use dual port ram, and be accessed regularly by the PIC for other options.
So, it is probable, at this time (with several questions unanswered about extended RAM, paging and MMIO circuitry) that instead of a Twinned Processor on PHI, that timing cycle will be used elsewise and a multiprocessing system, which is desired, will work more like a cluster, than multicore systems today.
The COP functions are being explored, the PIC, the u-FPU and the GPU may be used for additional processing functions over time.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

You can use your PIC as a math co-processor. It won't be as fast as the single cycle FPGA Stefany uses in her Foenix '816 system but it will be good enough. I use the ATmega in my Ruby system for floating point stuff when its running in BCPL mode - it's also a UART and controls the bootstrap process by loading the RAM with the bootstrap code then letting the '816 run that which then communicates back to the ATmega to load the rest of the OS. There is no ROM in my Ruby boards.

-Gordon

_________________
--
Gordon Henderson.
See my Ruby 6502 and 65816 SBC projects here: https://projects.drogon.net/ruby/

as I explore the core logic unit, which I have considered many 65xx chips, and others, the 65134 and 65265 both seem appealing as a coprocessor, however, they end up being 'overkill' if Im going to use a PIC, and really do not quite work as I'd like. My GPU currently is a Bridgetek at 60 MHz with a 12MHz clock/oscillator, so 12MHz becomes a really important speed to reduce timing line confusion and such. to KISS (Keep It Safe & Simple), I want as few clocks as possible. My other choices are a 4D systems 16bit controller like Picasso, Goldilocks or Diablo.
The board controller, is going to most likely be a PIC24, though an msp430 or '265 are good choices as well and may get drivers for the OS side.

I really need to understand the COP pin and latches of the 65xx series chips. I am more interested in the cell type architecture described, though Im not certain that is exactly what Im after. I really like the um-FPU, and I do like the 16-bit scalar math tables, that's a slide rule in an age of calculators from what I read. it might be worth including if the BIOSYS ROM has extra room, however, once we talk about 32, or 64 bit maths, and the kinds of things offered, I think its nice to have a dedicated unit. Id like to do calculus and statistics on this device, complex systems analysis and adaptive resonance theory type stuff. If I am going to market to industry and education, having one serious calculator is not only a good selling point, its a feature I would enjoy having, and, it helps teach that 'is this worth doing' optimization, and, 'using chips of different sizes' techniques I want to employ and offer my users.

yes, look up tables are great, so is fast-inverse-square-root. Im not 100% I want the um-FPU, ideally, the 65816 or whatever can have any other chip in the system act as its coprocessor when Im done, so if the PIC24 ends up being a dsp and you want to use the 40-bit barrel shifter for something, then you can do that. I might have both tables and a coprocessor. Im also looking at some 'texture and pattern'' fonts on rom for visual use, like common architectural fills. etc.

clearly, there are two main breakout areas of the board to examine next, the power control unit, and the core logic unit, which should start the OS development itself. one thing at a time, the logic unit first

Just a thought on co-processors and look-up tables.

Using an '816 I've discovered I have about 384KB in a several megabyte system that I didn't know what to do with. I also wanted a co-processor. I could find no off-the-shelf co-processor that fits the '816 so, for me, it was a simple decision to use that unused RAM as a co-processor by packing with with lookup tables. There's plenty of notes on this in Garth's primer and even more on the internet in general.

Also because I can either store these tables on an SD card or write the code to generate them if I ever *really* need to use that RAM for something then I can just trash the tables and put them back when I'm done.

You're mileage may vary.

I have a slide rule in my desk, a Ti-83 in a package with the full size manual for it as my 'in case of the end of the world open math kit'.

I am really likely to drop the 16-bit tables on a ROM if there is room, for one, using them in recovery mode when you might not want to use the FPU, or if the FPU is crunching a big number etc.

The PIC has 17x17 multiply and a few other fancy registers and functions, I think it could really make use of the tables if need be, its going to be busy handling I/O, sorting interrupts from its multiple-priority setup, to the IRQ and NMI signals the CPU has; and otherwise 'running the hardware and board', it is taking the place of a RIOT chip, its got the timers, the I/O, interrupt stack, its going to basically just be running its driver code. So having the look up tables there also makes sense as it will probably take a lot of clock cycles.

The GPU is 32-bit registers in many places, and I need to look further at what math it can do. I am not expecting a lot of 3d rendering on the device, though simple things may be possible if the polygon count is low and shading is simple. I once did a contract on a game boy advance game in college that used vertex shaded 3d graphics for environment pieces. It is very possible in the next year or so, the gpu may support a subset of openGL. It is close already with its fan drawing routines.

The biggest appeal to me, is the ability to crunch big data on a small device. I am hoping to get a really good calculator going and make it accessible to the user. A lot of 'build a computer' kits out there end with 'hello world', and the ICs are unused, a novelty.

The Integrity is a daily use computer. It plays games, makes music, has e-books, runs code, and has an incredible programmable calculator.
I am hoping to attract some Open Source developers and get a community going, so right now, that is you all.
I see no reason to not include both a slide rule, and an antikythera fpu, and a straight edge and compass (divider)... maybe a string, strings are really useful when building... in our fancy Relic technology bridge.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

You've just described my mobile phone. It can also send messages via a variety of means, I can tun SSH from it and it has wi-fi, bluetooth, acts as a mobile hot-spot, has a torch, multiple cameras for stills and video, fits in my pocket, runs for 3-4 days on a charge, full colour multi-touch screen, plays videos and podcasts and a million more things should I care. It cost me £130.

A retro equivalent with bare minimal features would be a novelty but it would not be by daily use computer by any stretch.



It might be worth while having a look at the open source "community" right now.

And look very closely at other similar projects that feature the '816 - Foenix, Neon816 ... Are the only 2 in recent times I know of. Also in the 6502 world; the Commander X16, Mega65, Various PET clones, ... and see how they're getting on and what their communities are up to.

My suspicions are that the open source community won't help you much although you may get one or 2 enthusiasts but for how long? I used to be quite active but after receiving no support from the people I was supporting and worse, demands that I support them for free, (which at one point resulted in one 10,000 email for one particular project), I withdrew everything and decided that if people want my code they can pay me for it. No-one did.

And I know I'm not the only one in recent years this has happened to.



Don't forget a box of these too: https://www.discworldemporium.com/produ ... pills-box/

-Gordon

_________________
--
Gordon Henderson.
See my Ruby 6502 and 65816 SBC projects here: https://projects.drogon.net/ruby/