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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:42 pm 
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The amazing 6502 support chip: The 6532 RIOT!
https://youtu.be/Fo5bwoBWVhU

I hope I didn’t get too many things wrong :)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:03 pm 
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I thought it was a nice video, Anders.

I've always been fascinated by some of the early small systems that included a 6532, like the 82-300 board from John Bell Engineering, the Beta, the CEPAC-6502, and the EMUF 6504. Several of which have been described on Hans Otten's site.

Cheerful regards, Mike, K8LH


Attachments:
Bell 82-300 Schematic.png
Bell 82-300 Schematic.png [ 283.25 KiB | Viewed 1465 times ]
Bell 82-300 Memory Map.png
Bell 82-300 Memory Map.png [ 62.75 KiB | Viewed 1465 times ]


Last edited by Michael on Tue Oct 18, 2022 4:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:57 am 
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BTW, I have a few of the 2-MHz G65SC32P-2 CMOS version which were manufactured by CMD or GTE. They seem to be getting harder to find at a decent price.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 8:48 pm 
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Michael wrote:
I thought it was a nice video, Anders.

I've always been fascinated by some of the early small systems that included a 6532, like the 82-300 board from John Bell Engineering, the Beta, the CEPAC-6502, and the EMUF 6504. Several of which have been described on Hans Otten's site.

Cheerful regards, Mike, K8LH


Thank you :)

Yes! Exactly! Deep down I know I’ll end up with something comparable to a 50 cent modern MCU but it really is tempting to make a minimal 6502 system like this - and then go overboard with blinkenlights and toggle switches on a real front panel :D

With the 65c02 it might even be possible to skip the ROM and toggle 128 bytes of code straight to RAM… NMOS would require extra separation/buffering

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New new new new new video out! Serial Bootloader for my 65uino
Also, check out: I2C on a 6502 Single Board Computer
and Complete hardware overview of my 6502 SBC R1 :)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:46 pm 
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Looking at the John Bell schematic, I am shocked a 2N2222 is fast enough to act as an address decoder. I tried to use one as an inverter with my SBC and it couldn't switch fast enough. So I ended up using an inverter IC and having a bunch of unused logic gates.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:16 pm 
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Martin_H wrote:
Looking at the John Bell schematic, I am shocked a 2N2222 is fast enough to act as an address decoder. I tried to use one as an inverter with my SBC and it couldn't switch fast enough. So I ended up using an inverter IC and having a bunch of unused logic gates.

Did you put the capacitor across the base resistor like he shows?  (I would recommend only 33 or 47pF though, not .001µF.)  See Chad's comment and the simulation he links to at viewtopic.php?p=92375#p92375 .  Next, although that will enable the NPN transistor to pull down fast, the transistor will take longer to let go if it's really saturated.  The way to prevent that problem is to keep it from really saturating, ie, turning on so hard, by putting a fast Schottky diode from base to collector, with the cathode toward the collector.  That way, when the collector voltage gets to about a quarter of a volt from ground on its way down, it begins shunting out the base current so the transistor can't pull all the way down, let alone with a current allowance that exceeds the pull-up resistor's "budget."

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:10 am 
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Would you mind posting a diagram of that Garth? Sounds interesting!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:07 am 
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BigEd wrote:
Would you mind posting a diagram of that Garth? Sounds interesting!

Attachment:
fasterTransistorInverter.gif
fasterTransistorInverter.gif [ 8.04 KiB | Viewed 1677 times ]

I had said 47pF; but with the diode in there, and the Miller effect which will be increased by the diode, it might be good to make it 100pF instead.  I'd have to experiment to see what range of values makes the most difference.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:33 am 
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Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:51 pm 
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I'm trying to work out why that stabilises with OUT at around a quarter of a volt, with e.g. a 5V supply and IN=4.5V. The diode pulls OUT up to e.g. IN-0.3V, minus whatever is dropped across the resistor - so I guess the base current through the transistor means enough voltage is dropped across the resistor to get OUT down to a low logic level? Is there a better way to think about this, my mental model doesn't feel very good!

Edit - ah I think I get it, the transistor's base will be about 0.6V-0.7V above its emitter, the drop across the resistor covers the rest, drawing whatever current is required for that, and the diode only pulls OUT up to about 0.3V less than that VBE voltage.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:26 pm 
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The Schottky diode diverts excess base current (that would've saturated the 2N2222) to collector. This is sometimes called the "Baker clamp" although the original Baker clamp was 2-diode circuit.
Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 6:19 pm 
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GARTHWILSON wrote:
Did you put the capacitor across the base resistor like he shows? (I would recommend only 33 or 47pF though, not .001µF.)

I did not as I didn't know it would help. Seeing your links was interesting.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2022 6:57 pm 
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Michael wrote:
I thought it was a nice video, Anders.

I've always been fascinated by some of the early small systems that included a 6532, like the 82-300 board from John Bell Engineering, the Beta, the CEPAC-6502, and the EMUF 6504. Several of which have been described on Hans Otten's site.

Cheerful regards, Mike, K8LH


15k and 20pF makes that an RC clock of 530516 Hz .. right?

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New new new new new video out! Serial Bootloader for my 65uino
Also, check out: I2C on a 6502 Single Board Computer
and Complete hardware overview of my 6502 SBC R1 :)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:02 pm 
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Another question about the transistor 'decoder' on that John Bell 82-300 board, if I may?

Knowing enough about electronics to be dangerous... would an N-channel MOSFET (2N7000 perhaps) be a suitable replacment for the 2N2222 BJT? I noticed San Bergmans used something like that on his 6802 Nano board. Any potential issues trying this on a copy of the John Bell 82-300 board with a 1-MHz clock?

TIA. Mike, K8LH


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6802 Nano v1.png
6802 Nano v1.png [ 336.22 KiB | Viewed 1457 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:55 pm 
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Michael wrote:
would an N-channel MOSFET (2N7000 perhaps) be a suitable replacement for the 2N2222 BJT?

The MOSFET in your drawing is connected correctly, assuming that's an N-channel enhancement-mode MOSFET.  The FET doesn't need a gate resistor like the BJT needs a base resistor.  You do still need to make sure you use a MOSFET whose "on" resistance is low enough for the job at the applicable gate voltage.  The rise-time considerations are still there too (with that pull-up resistor).

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