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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:26 pm 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
BTW, I spotted a small but important omission in Doug's circuit, one that could definitely cause some grief.

Do you spot any fatal flaws in mine?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:28 pm 
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Jmstein7 wrote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
I'd love to :D I but don't do github. Can you attach something to your next message?

I don't know why, but the forum won't let me upload a PDF.

Can you be more specific? I upload PDFs all the time without problems.

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Do you spot any fatal flaws in mine?

I haven't looked. As I said, I don't do Github.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:03 pm 
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Okay, seems to have worked?


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Schematic_Six Five See Oh Two Alpha_2021-07-02.pdf [226.86 KiB]
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:54 pm 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Dr Jefyll wrote:
( Ouch! This is better... )

AMEN! :D

BTW, I spotted a small but important omission in Doug's circuit, one that could definitely cause some grief.


Perhaps you're referring to the RDY input on the CPU as floating? Some earlier 65C02 chips had an internal pull-up on RDY. I saw some years ago that the WDC W65C02 datasheet stated that RDY no longer has an internal pull-up. Granted, that could cause a problem with a CPU that doesn't have the older internal pull-up resistor. I did notice that Doug's circuit is using a G65C02P... which I believe does have the pull-up.

Good find :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:46 pm 
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Jmstein7 wrote:
Okay, I updated the schematic again, taking your suggestions into account. And, yeah, I know this is a WIP and that there are some terrible inefficiencies here, but, c'est la vie.

https://github.com/jmstein7/65c02_errata/blob/main/Schematic_Six%20Five%20See%20Oh%20Two%20Alpha_2021-07-02.pdf

Yet another crappy attempt at a schematic and PCB :lol:

Jon


Why have you got A15 connected to OE on the RAM? When you do a write to RAM you'll end up with both OE and WE low, which sounds like a bad idea to me.
Strictly according to the spec sheets, a 150ns access FLASH device isn't fast enough to run the processor at 8MHz without wait states. Clock low to address valid is 30ns max at 5V, data setup to following clock low is min 10ns, so you have 1 clock period - 40ns for access time. At 8MHz that's 125ns - 40ns = 85ns.
The ROM is gated only by A15 high from what I can see (CE = !A15, OE always low). So if you ever try to write to ROM you'll end up with the CPU and the ROM both driving the same bus, which is bad.
The I/O decoding logic looks completely wrong to me. Your '138 is gated by A15=1, A12=A13=A14=0. So addresses in the 8000-8FFF range. But we already saw that any address with A15 high selects the ROM, so you have a clash there. Then, you've used A0, A1 and A2 to select between devices, but each VIA uses A0-A3 to select one of the 16 internal registers to be accessed. You need to use A4-A6 to select between devices instead of A0-A2.
You have a 74HC10 with only 1 gate out of 3 used as an inverter, and a 74HC02 with only 1 gate out of 4 used - seems a bit wasteful.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:35 pm 
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kernelthread wrote:
Why have you got A15 connected to OE on the RAM? When you do a write to RAM you'll end up with both OE and WE low, which sounds like a bad idea to me.

On every RAM I've seen, OE\ is irrelevant when WE\ is low. It won't enable the output buffers when WE\ is low.

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The ROM is gated only by A15 high from what I can see (CE = !A15, OE always low). So if you ever try to write to ROM you'll end up with the CPU and the ROM both driving the same bus, which is bad.

In the unlikely scenario that a software bug makes it try to write to ROM, it will be for much too short a time to cause any damage. It's possible that the bus contention could cause a spike in the power supply (and ground) current which could change their apparent voltages and upset input thresholds for the one cycle duration; but in 30 years of doing it this way myself, I have never had a problem.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:23 am 
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floobydust wrote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
BTW, I spotted a small but important omission in Doug's circuit, one that could definitely cause some grief.

Perhaps you're referring to the RDY input on the CPU as floating? Some earlier 65C02 chips had an internal pull-up on RDY. I saw some years ago that the WDC W65C02 datasheet stated that RDY no longer has an internal pull-up. Granted, that could cause a problem with a CPU that doesn't have the older internal pull-up resistor. I did notice that Doug's circuit is using a G65C02P... which I believe does have the pull-up.

That's why I said "could...cause some grief." WDC 65C02s have not had the internal pullup on RDY for a long time. None of the data sheets I have for the 65C816 indicates that RDY has ever had an internal pullup. The 65C02 data sheet that WDC published in 2004 indicates the pullup is present, however I recall the 2010 data sheet indicated it had been removed.

As such internal pullups tend to be weak allowing RDY to float makes it vulnerable to noise. Best practice is to properly terminate all MPU inputs.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:16 am 
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Dr Jefyll wrote:
( Ouch! This is better... )


I remember studying Douglas' decoder circuit back in 2016;

Attachment:
decoder beattie.png
decoder beattie.png [ 70.44 KiB | Viewed 590 times ]


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:04 am 
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Michael wrote:
Dr Jefyll wrote:
( Ouch! This is better... )


I remember studying Douglas' decoder circuit back in 2016;

Attachment:
decoder beattie.png


The old Commodore 1581 Diskette Drive used a similar decode logic, also using a 74LS139.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:50 am 
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floobydust wrote:
Michael wrote:
Dr Jefyll wrote:
( Ouch! This is better... )

I remember studying Douglas' decoder circuit back in 2016;

The old Commodore 1581 Diskette Drive used a similar decode logic, also using a 74LS139.

A variation of Douglas' method might be a good single chip decoder candidate to duplicate the memory map of the Potpouri system in "The Primer" (1st drawing below). Tweak the logic a bit and use a 64K RAM chip for an additional 8K of RAM (2nd drawing below). Both designs are "untested"...


Attachments:
Beater 08a.png
Beater 08a.png [ 516.16 KiB | Viewed 444 times ]
Beater 08c.png
Beater 08c.png [ 525.25 KiB | Viewed 444 times ]


Last edited by Michael on Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:45 am, edited 8 times in total.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:43 pm 
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GARTHWILSON wrote:
In the unlikely scenario that a software bug makes it try to write to ROM, it will be for much too short a time to cause any damage. It's possible that the bus contention could cause a spike in the power supply (and ground) current which could change their apparent voltages and upset input thresholds for the one cycle duration; but in 30 years of doing it this way myself, I have never had a problem.

Thanks, Garth. That's the way I thought it was supposed to be done, too.

Jon


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:05 pm 
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Okay, I made some drastic changes, based on what all of you have more or less suggested:
https://github.com/jmstein7/65c02_errata/blob/main/Schematic_revised.pdf

Still stinks :mrgreen:

Jon

PS I'm using a WDC 65c02. Got them from Mouser.

PPS This is a generic pcb version of it:
https://github.com/jmstein7/65c02_errata/blob/main/PCB_default.pdf

Weird... it keeps turning my VCCs into GND?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:16 pm 
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Jmstein7 wrote:
Okay, I made some drastic changes, based on what all of you have more or less suggested:
https://github.com/jmstein7/65c02_errata/blob/main/Schematic_revised.pdf

Still stinks :mrgreen:

Jon

PS I'm using a WDC 65c02. Got them from Mouser.

PPS This is a generic pcb version of it:
https://github.com/jmstein7/65c02_errata/blob/main/PCB_default.pdf


Well, not sure about your latest schematic... seems the first sheet is mostly unchanged, i.e., still no actual reset circuit. The second sheet has issues... look at the '138 decoder. You have A0, A1, A2 going to the 3 inputs, which basically has the outputs at single addresses. Yet you're using these for chip selects for the two VIAs and the ACIA. The VIAs require 16 addresses each and the ACIA 4 addresses. Needless to say this doesn't work.

Also, you've added a 3-input NAND gate and only one gate is used, but configured as a basic inverter. Yet, you have 3 unused gates on the 7402 NOR gate, one of which could be used as an inverter.

I'm going to suggest you back up here.... write some design goals down first. Meaning, define your I/O devices and include how many memory addresses each one requires. Do the same for your desired memory configuration, both RAM and ROM. Include control signals for each device and finally build a memory map to include everything. You then need to define how you generate the signals to support each chip (RAM, ROM and the I/O devices).

Again, it helps to look at some other designs to see how they work. I'll include an old one from my earlier stuff... just the CPU, RAM, ROM and basic decode circuitry to define an I/O page at $FE00 and break that down into 8- chip selects using a 74138. This is quite simple.... my original design for this dates back to the 1980's.... shortly after I got my first Rockwell 65C02.

Attachment:
65C02-CPU-Rev-1.1.jpg
65C02-CPU-Rev-1.1.jpg [ 681.62 KiB | Viewed 545 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:18 pm 
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I give up. :?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:17 pm 
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It's a pity you're discouraged, Jon. I hope that turns out to be temporary.

One of the advantages of breadboarding, or of simulation, is that you can iterate and debug the design. Whereas, with PCBs, there's a lot of checking, and then a wait (and some money) and then quite possibly some debugging and some fixups and maybe a second revision.

Having said that, I think in most cases there needs to be some careful review and checking, and thoughtful analysis, because trying to debug just by making changes and hoping has only some chance of getting to a good outcome.

As an example, when it comes to programming, I don't usually stray beyond the range of ten to twenty lines of code, and in such simple cases, I can usually hack about until the program does what I want. If I were to tackle something in the hundreds to thousands of lines, that approach would be, I think, unfruitful.

That is to say, beyond a certain level of complexity, there's no substitute for being organised and careful and checking what you do. I don't think that should be an absolute obstacle for anyone, but it might be a skill and a mindset that takes a bit of an adjustment.

I hope this is helpful - and not adding insult to injury!


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