6502.org Forum  Projects  Code  Documents  Tools  Forum
It is currently Sun Nov 24, 2024 9:41 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: W65C02 Explorer board
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 2:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:15 pm
Posts: 904
While I thoroughly enjoyed putting together the wire-wrapped Garth-1, I was not totally satisfied with the results. I still have some questions about the preferred memory map, Phi2 write-qualification vs. chip-select qualification, and certain aspects of the 6502 bus timing. The wire-wrapped board is a little too noisy (without a ground-plane), an a little too hard to change on a whim. I did not sequence the wrapping wisely, and wound up with some deeply-buried wraps for things I may want to change...

To make experimentation easier, I slapped together a quick 4-layer PCB housing a W65C02, a VIA, a ZIF ROM socket and a skinny RAM. A 74xx00 provides some commonly used signals to make it easy to slap together a quick system. In anticipation of extensive experiments with a GAL, I provisioned space for a wire-wrap socket, as well as a fully ground-planed wire-wrap area. I routed all interesting signals to pads that can accommodate a wire-wrap post. I also provided pads for a variety of clock sources (full and half-can oscillator or 5x7mm SMT oscillator). Finally there is a space for a SOT223 reset supervisor.

To keep things simple I doubled up the inner layers as ground (power distribution is pretty minimal here) and placed all SMT components (including decoupling caps) sit on the back side of the board. I tried to provide a ground pads near signal pads.

The board is intended as a moving target, and I can upgrade/fine-tune it as needed, as the cost is minimal at JLCPCB. 5 boards should be arriving any day now and I will report on my progress on this thread...
Attachment:
W65C02.explorer.png
W65C02.explorer.png [ 70.68 KiB | Viewed 648 times ]

_________________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. ...Jan van de Snepscheut


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:46 pm
Posts: 8514
Location: Midwestern USA
enso wrote:
To keep things simple I doubled up the inner layers as ground (power distribution is pretty minimal here) and placed all SMT components (including decoupling caps) sit on the back side of the board.

Doubling up the ground plane isn't likely to do anything more for you than having a properly-bypassed inner power layer, and could even be worse. In a PCB in which there are adjacent power and ground layers (as would be the case with a four-layer board), the layers act like a giant bypass capacitor. That won't happen if both layers are ground.

_________________
x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:15 pm
Posts: 904
I am still trying to figure out the ideal 4-layer layout strategy. If the power plane is acting as a return path via bypass capacitors, the placement of bypass capacitors becomes much more of an issue. I am considering going back to my early experiments of placing capacitors directly into unplated holes (possibly increasing the thickness of the board to 1.8 or 2mm for a better fit) - I think Garth had some success with that. On the other hand, going to a thinner board makes more sense from the capacitive standpoint - 1.6mm boards have a 1.2mm central core...

I didn't mean to imply that doubling the ground layer is better than one - it was just easier in this case as routing and power distribution requirements are minimal, there is plenty of room, and all I really wanted was a good ground plane.

_________________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. ...Jan van de Snepscheut


Last edited by enso on Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:09 am
Posts: 8546
Location: Southern California
enso wrote:
I am considering going back to my early experiments of placing capacitors directly into unplated holes (possibly increasing the thickness of the board to 1.8 or 2mm for a better fit) - I think Garth had some success with that.

The post about it, with a diagram, is at viewtopic.php?p=16095#p16095 . 0603 capacitors are a little shorter than the standard .062" board thickness; so don't make the board thicker for these. If anything, make it just slightly thinner, to make it easier to solder them. 0805 might be a little easier. I have not tried it though, in any thickness of board.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:15 pm
Posts: 904
Huh, my memory is not very reliable these days. Sorry, Garth - for some reason I thought you were planting the caps into the substrate of your memory modules.

I was likely experimenting with a 0.8mm board as I remember the caps being a little too big. The flush end soldered easily, but the sticky-up end was too high to flow solder. It was also before I discovered the good flux, and soldering them was a bit of a hassle; things got easier after I hooked up an ohmmeter to the power and ground and checked it while soldering in the caps to avoid a short.

With a 4-layer board it may not be worth the hassle of routing power and ground from the inner layers out to the top/bottom of the unplated hole.

It may be one of those ideas that seems like a good one but in practice is not so great. But I am not yet taking it off my bucket list.

_________________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. ...Jan van de Snepscheut


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:09 am
Posts: 8546
Location: Southern California
enso wrote:
Huh, my memory is not very reliable these days. Sorry, Garth - for some reason I thought you were planting the caps into the substrate of your memory modules.

Yes, I do. They're in the board, with one plated end soldered to one side of the board, and the other plated end soldered to the other side. From the outside of the board, all you'll see is a solder bump. The 0603 capacitors are a bit of a challenge to solder though, because they're slightly too short to reach comfortably from one side of the board to the other. After the ICs are on, the only way to see the solder bumps is to look underneath the ICs, looking from the edge of the board.

Quote:
With a 4-layer board it may not be worth the hassle of routing power and ground from the inner layers out to the top/bottom of the unplated hole.

It would be a little extra work in massaging the gerber files after your CAD is done, but you could add holes in the plane around those drilled holes so there's no contact and no interference with the job of soldering the capacitors in. It will still need secondary drilling after all holes are plated through though, whether you pay the board house to do the secondary drilling, or you do it yourself.

Quote:
It may be one of those ideas that seems like a good one but in practice is not so great. But I am not yet taking it off my bucket list.
My only problem with it is that it turned out to be more work than I had anticipated. Maybe I should have planned for 0805 capacitors rather than 0603.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 58 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: