Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
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barrym95838
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Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
I draw the line at malicious insults (playful insults don't bother me, but the line can be a bit fuzzy). I'm probably more lenient than most in that regard, but I certainly respect Ed's desire to keep things tidy. Unfortunately, I am a frequent contributor to thread drift, a flaw that I'm trying to overcome. Err ... back on topic, I started to learn some Python a few years back, but soon realized that my very finite attention span was urgently needed elsewhere. This is the first I've heard of MicroPython, and I'm following this thread with mild interest and an open mind.
Got a kilobyte lying fallow in your 65xx's memory map? Sprinkle some VTL02C on it and see how it grows on you!
Mike B. (about me) (learning how to github)
Mike B. (about me) (learning how to github)
Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
I certainly did not mean to maliciously insult anyone. As you can see I don't like Python. If you like it - enjoy it. There are plenty of things I like that many would find awful (even I find some things I enjoy objectively terrible).
Look at the subject of this thread carefully. My response is entirely on topic and appropriate: this old fart emphatically explains exactly what about MicroPython he finds objectionable, syntactically, semantically, and culturally.
Look at the subject of this thread carefully. My response is entirely on topic and appropriate: this old fart emphatically explains exactly what about MicroPython he finds objectionable, syntactically, semantically, and culturally.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. ...Jan van de Snepscheut
Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
The thing is, if we indulge in negativity, we put off people who actually want to create projects, follow their interests, and share their enthusiasm.
It might feel good, briefly, but it's ultimately harmful to the community. And therefore it's against the spirit of the forum.
It is, in this case, I grant you, a provocative thread title, but the first post is very clear that it's seeking to build something, not to tear anything down.
The real challenge is not to rise to the bait when someone inevitably loses their self-control. Don't feed the trolls, as they used to say.
It might feel good, briefly, but it's ultimately harmful to the community. And therefore it's against the spirit of the forum.
It is, in this case, I grant you, a provocative thread title, but the first post is very clear that it's seeking to build something, not to tear anything down.
The real challenge is not to rise to the bait when someone inevitably loses their self-control. Don't feed the trolls, as they used to say.
Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
What exactly is the spirit of the forum, please elucidate us (In a different thread!). I thought open discussion was the spirit of this forum. I am open to change my mind if someone shows me that I am wrong, and I hope that people challenge my misunderstandings without worrying too much about offending me or others.
As for this particular topic... I am assuming that the 'old-timers' reference, annoying as it is, is light-hearted. However, if you look at this post and others like it, it is not what it seems. It's not like OP is building a MicroPython port and asking for advice - it a part of systematic prodding for others to do something (port MicroPython, create a makefile, write a modern OS or whatever). I don't think it's malicious, and perhaps something is lost in translation or due to age or any number of factors not worth discussing. It is however not very productive in the first place, and any value derived from this and other similar topics comes from the discussion that ensues.
If someone does port MicroPython because of this topic, I would be very surprised.
Otherwise, BigEd, you are totally correct.
As for this particular topic... I am assuming that the 'old-timers' reference, annoying as it is, is light-hearted. However, if you look at this post and others like it, it is not what it seems. It's not like OP is building a MicroPython port and asking for advice - it a part of systematic prodding for others to do something (port MicroPython, create a makefile, write a modern OS or whatever). I don't think it's malicious, and perhaps something is lost in translation or due to age or any number of factors not worth discussing. It is however not very productive in the first place, and any value derived from this and other similar topics comes from the discussion that ensues.
If someone does port MicroPython because of this topic, I would be very surprised.
Otherwise, BigEd, you are totally correct.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. ...Jan van de Snepscheut
Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
What is the point of a thread? What is the point of posting? Presumably it is to get appreciation, explanation, constructive criticism, collaboration.
You yourself have started threads. What did you want? Someone to tell you that FPGAs are stupid? That you're doing the wrong project? That you should look at this other project instead because it's better than yours?
There's a very simple guideline which will serve you well: if you don't agree with the premise of a project, or of a thread, leave it alone. Leave it to people who do agree with it, who find it attractive. If there is no-one, then the thread will die. If you favour some different approach, or different language, or different technique, then make a thread. Make a project. Do something which shows you are right. See who turns up. Maybe both ways of doing it are valid, maybe we get two threads with productive discussions and interesting outcomes.
But don't just vent. Don't destroy enthusiasm. Don't demotivate. Don't waste people's time.
You yourself have started threads. What did you want? Someone to tell you that FPGAs are stupid? That you're doing the wrong project? That you should look at this other project instead because it's better than yours?
There's a very simple guideline which will serve you well: if you don't agree with the premise of a project, or of a thread, leave it alone. Leave it to people who do agree with it, who find it attractive. If there is no-one, then the thread will die. If you favour some different approach, or different language, or different technique, then make a thread. Make a project. Do something which shows you are right. See who turns up. Maybe both ways of doing it are valid, maybe we get two threads with productive discussions and interesting outcomes.
But don't just vent. Don't destroy enthusiasm. Don't demotivate. Don't waste people's time.
Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
Huh. Interesting. Perhaps other people don't think like you do, BigEd. And you are dragging this discussion way off topic.
I've started many threads. I don't do it for appreciation, but sure, explanation etc. If I don't know about FPGAs and someone tells me they are stupid, backing the statement with some sound explanation, and saves me some headache and wasted effort (for instance, using an FPGA for an address decoder is not smart, as a 5V GAL makes more sense than a huge investment of time into an inappropriate technology) - I'd be sure to thank them.
Thank you for your guideline. I completely encourage OP to write an implementation of MicroPython. It is certainly not 'wrong' in any way. But the topic is 'what about MicroPython', as OP seems to know very little about it. I don't feel it's discouraging or negative to reply to people who are asking for an opinion, whether it is positive or negative.
My advice to you is not different from yours. If you don't agree with my post, leave it alone. I respect the work you've done and some very useful posts, but I don't think you should be moderating discussions. Leave it to people to decide if they agree or not. It is an open discussion that informs, inspires, and sometimes makes you feel so annoyed with some poster that you actually do something constructive (I hope someone does implement MicroPython to prove me wrong, for instance!).
I hope we can now return to the topic.
I've started many threads. I don't do it for appreciation, but sure, explanation etc. If I don't know about FPGAs and someone tells me they are stupid, backing the statement with some sound explanation, and saves me some headache and wasted effort (for instance, using an FPGA for an address decoder is not smart, as a 5V GAL makes more sense than a huge investment of time into an inappropriate technology) - I'd be sure to thank them.
Thank you for your guideline. I completely encourage OP to write an implementation of MicroPython. It is certainly not 'wrong' in any way. But the topic is 'what about MicroPython', as OP seems to know very little about it. I don't feel it's discouraging or negative to reply to people who are asking for an opinion, whether it is positive or negative.
My advice to you is not different from yours. If you don't agree with my post, leave it alone. I respect the work you've done and some very useful posts, but I don't think you should be moderating discussions. Leave it to people to decide if they agree or not. It is an open discussion that informs, inspires, and sometimes makes you feel so annoyed with some poster that you actually do something constructive (I hope someone does implement MicroPython to prove me wrong, for instance!).
I hope we can now return to the topic.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. ...Jan van de Snepscheut
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GARTHWILSON
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Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
Python is new to me, and I had not heard of MicroPython until tokafondo started this topic. I have learned a few things about them that I did not know before, and things I would not have known if everything were required to come with happyfaces, flowers, chocolates, and balloons attached. (Some of what I've learned was because the topic drove me to search for more about it elsewhere.) I remember the more extreme cases where kc5tja and TMorita, both very seasoned professional programmers, would have sharp disagreements here, and the rest of us would stay safely out of the boxing ring and observe, with the goal of learning something. Learning is more limited if we can't hear from those who disagree, however they may express it. As long as there aren't abusive personal attacks and flared tempers, just let people be who they are. It's also fine for some philosophy to creep into a topic. We're mostly here because of our philosophy about 65xx processors. I suppose I'm an old-timer in a sense, but I like to live simply, and that spills over into my interest in 65xx. I'm always interested in new ways to accomplish more with this not-so-new technology, rather than just throwing GHz and GB at a problem. I'm not likely to use Python or MicroPython, but I'm glad for what I've been gleaning here, from all sides.
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?
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BigDumbDinosaur
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Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
BigEd wrote:
What is the point of a thread? What is the point of posting? Presumably it is to get appreciation, explanation, constructive criticism, collaboration.
Looking back through this entire topic, there doesn't seem to be a point to it. The OP started by making a snide remark about old-timers and what he evidently thinks are "obsolete" languages, and then suggested that someone port MicroPython (MP) to a 65xx system, presumably because MP is "modern." Some of us who are thoroughly familiar with the limitations of 6502 hardware and are "relics" of a different time in computing, tossed in our two cents. That's what happens on most forums. So what's the big deal? The OP surely isn't going to start writing code to make MP run on his 6502 hardware and those of us who think Python sucks are not going to suddenly become converts because MP is running on a 6502.
The problem, Ed, is you think your definition of constructive criticism is to never use any phraseology that someone might interpret as negativity. Most of the time, a "negative" opinion of someone who has graduated from the school of hard knocks might be sufficient to make a reasonable person have second thoughts about what it is they are planning. A less-reasonable person, on the other hand, might accuse the individual expressing the opinion of being negative or discouraging or dismissive or unwelcoming or prescriptive or...I'm sure someone can think of a few others to add to my list.
When it comes to homebrew computing projects, we should be encouraging success, not failure. Some things are simply a bad fit to 6502 technology, even to a 65C816 equipped with lots of RAM. From my perspective, encouraging anyone to embark on a project that has a substantial likelihood of failure is doing that individual a disservice and, in fact, creating exactly the negativity that is supposed to be avoided. Porting MP to a 65xx system—IN MY OPINION—is such a thing. If you don't like my opinion, Ed, or if you don't like enso's opinion, you can skip ahead to the next post and I, and probably enso, will not be offended. I will continue to say what I say and if you or anyone else doesn't like it, please ignore me.
enso wrote:
My advice to you is not different from yours. If you don't agree with my post, leave it alone. I respect the work you've done and some very useful posts, but I don't think you should be moderating discussions.
I agree. While I may occasionally poo-poo someone's ideas as chasing unicorns, I will never rebuke anyone for what they post, unless it is patently offensive or egregiously off-topic. Even so, that doesn't make me a self-appointed moderator.
Quote:
Leave it to people to decide if they agree or not. It is an open discussion that informs, inspires, and sometimes makes you feel so annoyed with some poster that you actually do something constructive (I hope someone does implement MicroPython to prove me wrong, for instance!).
I'd also like to be proved wrong regarding MP—although success in running it on a 65xx machine wouldn't change my opinion of Python.
x86? We ain't got no x86. We don't NEED no stinking x86!
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teamtempest
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Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
I've been playing around with Python and Jupyter notebooks lately. Overall I like them. Are they perfect? No (the auto-completion of the notebook I could do without, for one thing). But it's easy to slap something together to test an idea. Being able to easily import a graphics library to display results makes it almost painless to toy with the Traveling Salesman's Problem (and learn how far off my ideas for solving it are).
Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
Thanks everybody for your contributions to the thread.
"Enough of old timers" came from my previous "what about...?" threads, where I asked about porting Minix and Coherent to the 65816. Those two are "old times" operating systems and have them ported and working would be an exercise of "hobbyism" than anything else.
MicroPython is not and old timer -- and not an operating system. Would a 65xx port of it be something not only achievable but also worth of the effort? That's the spirit of the thread.
"Impossible to do because..."
"Doable but not worth of the effort because..."
"Totally feasible because...."
...would be good answers. This is a place of debate. Everybody learns, everybody wins.
"I hate MicroPython"
"It's a waste of time because I say so"
"I'd rather would do anything else even being able to do it"
...are answers too, and are also opinions but not actually answers for the question itself.
Anyway, thanks all again for your answers.
"Enough of old timers" came from my previous "what about...?" threads, where I asked about porting Minix and Coherent to the 65816. Those two are "old times" operating systems and have them ported and working would be an exercise of "hobbyism" than anything else.
MicroPython is not and old timer -- and not an operating system. Would a 65xx port of it be something not only achievable but also worth of the effort? That's the spirit of the thread.
"Impossible to do because..."
"Doable but not worth of the effort because..."
"Totally feasible because...."
...would be good answers. This is a place of debate. Everybody learns, everybody wins.
"I hate MicroPython"
"It's a waste of time because I say so"
"I'd rather would do anything else even being able to do it"
...are answers too, and are also opinions but not actually answers for the question itself.
Anyway, thanks all again for your answers.
Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
tokafondo wrote:
...MicroPython is not and old timer...
'What about a port of MicroPython", to me, does not mean 'How feasible is it to port MicroPython' - that would have been a much better topic. As it stands, it is a vague request for opinions, and it is entirely correct to answer "Yeah, what about it?" or "No way, because it sucks!".
'What about' is an almost meaningless phrase in this and other topics you've opened. If you say "How much of an effort is it to port MicroPython", you are likely to get the answers you want. Or "I want to port MicroPython but don't know where to start", if that's what you want. But it is pretty clear that you don't want to port it yourself...
Which leads to the implication that you want us to port it (and create a makefile, or an OS in other similar threads), and you want to round up the troops and somehow wrangle and excite us about the idea, using some kind of steve-jobsian managerial magic. Come on, experts, do this! Maybe I am too sensitive, but I've been manipulated enough that I don't want to play nice.
Isn't it amazing how a handful of words can be so full of 'micro-agressions'?
Now, I am pretty sure that you did not mean to offend at all. But words are powerful in the way they alter our mental states and actions. I've been trying to figure out exactly why I feel so irritated with this thread - I don't even hate Python that much... It is a good practice to choose words carefully - and I am certainly learning that lesson myself every day.
Best wishes
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. ...Jan van de Snepscheut
Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
(BTW, given the evolution of this thread, I think there would be value in a new thread for the same original purpose, but of course with a better title, and a careful intro, and the first post can also collect several suitable quotes from this thread.)
Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
Well, first of all: my apologies to every single one of you if I offended with my words and expressions. I'm not a native English speaker and this is the first time since I started to post in different sites in the net (and I'm talking about more than 25 years, where Internet started to reach people's homes) that I got so many people so angry. It seems to be my fault for not to be aware of how the same words can be understood so differently among the people who reads it. (*)
I don't want...
I get nothing of personal value more than learning and the feeling of an achievement from anything I do here, and when I have something that I can return to the community, I don't hesitate.
So: the threads I've opened about the proposed ports were about discussion of the idea of them to be done. Having the experts talking about them, instead of having experts doing them as I said, for me.
So that's the actual meaning of all of this.
---
Edit: clicked on 'submit' instead of 'preview'
(*) "Coger" means to take/grab something in Spain. In many South America countries "coger" also means having sex with someone. Imagine how carefully you have to use the word.
I don't want...
- ...anybody to port MicroPython, Coherent, Minix or whatever for me.
- ...someone to check makefiles for me.
- ...compare between different compilers, or make one in particular work for me.
I get nothing of personal value more than learning and the feeling of an achievement from anything I do here, and when I have something that I can return to the community, I don't hesitate.
So: the threads I've opened about the proposed ports were about discussion of the idea of them to be done. Having the experts talking about them, instead of having experts doing them as I said, for me.
So that's the actual meaning of all of this.
---
Edit: clicked on 'submit' instead of 'preview'
(*) "Coger" means to take/grab something in Spain. In many South America countries "coger" also means having sex with someone. Imagine how carefully you have to use the word.
Last edited by tokafondo on Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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barrym95838
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Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
enso wrote:
Now, I am pretty sure that you did not mean to offend at all. But words are powerful in the way they alter our mental states and actions. I've been trying to figure out exactly why I feel so irritated with this thread - I don't even hate Python that much... It is a good practice to choose words carefully - and I am certainly learning that lesson myself every day.
Best wishes
Best wishes
Back to your regularly scheduled program. And Long Live 6502.org!!
Got a kilobyte lying fallow in your 65xx's memory map? Sprinkle some VTL02C on it and see how it grows on you!
Mike B. (about me) (learning how to github)
Mike B. (about me) (learning how to github)
Re: Enough of old timers: What about a port of MicroPython?
Hi tokafondo
completely understood - you are starting good threads, and I hope you continue to do so. As Mike says, most people will give a lot of leeway for language used. You should never have to worry.
completely understood - you are starting good threads, and I hope you continue to do so. As Mike says, most people will give a lot of leeway for language used. You should never have to worry.