While wandering around the net, I ran across:

http://www.batchpcb.com

You can get two-layer PCBs with soldermask for $10 setup + $2.50/sq. inch. This is just slightly more than ExpressPCB's miniboard service. The only catch is you need to use tools which will generate Gerber and NC drill format files.

Toshi

It's good to have this topic here for everyone to know their PC board options. [Edit, 12/1/16: See our topic "Cheap PCB stories."]

I just started working with pcbnet.com in my job, and have been amazed at their low prices which apparently are explained largely by the fact that they only accept gerber RS-274X and not the older 274D, so their CAM time is drastically reduced, especially for a very complex layer which previously required several gerber files to define. I had to download, print, and learn 274X since my CAD only puts out 274D; and while it's confusing at first, it didn't take very long to get to where I can make the conversions much more quickly in my text editor than I was previously able to write out the manufacturing instructions clearly in the README.TXT file if one or more of the layers was more than just a set of pads and traces. I've written myself some instructions and templates for the conversions. I can check my work with a free gerber viewer (called gerbv). Edit, 12/1/16: I see there's a free 3D online gerber viewer at http://mayhewlabs.com/3dpcb .

This board house (pcbnet.com) would be more expensive for very small quantities than you're talking about, but less expensive for slightly larger quantities. 2-layer is $.30 to $.50 per square inch after a setup charge of about $140. One of the six boards we're getting made is 4-layer, mixed SMT and thru-hole, 10.5 square inches, legend on both sides, for $3.42 each after a $519 setup charge. Since we're a first-time customer, we're getting half off the first order. Even without that that, repeat orders are a lot cheaper, which in undoubtedly because you don't have to pay the setup charge again.

I've used PCB Express before (not ExpressPCB) and that was quite economical for their prototyping service, but there were a lot of limitations, like that hole sizes had to be chosen from their limited list.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

I know there are some cheaper sites out there. The trouble I had was finding the cheaper software that could do the layouts. I have tried a few freeware PCB layout tools, but could not find one that fit the bill. I started out using the free version of Eagle (Eagle Lite). However, the limitations prevented me from being able to put together an SBC board.

Does anyone have any recommendations for the decent yet economical layout tool?

Daryl

Another source I've found lately is:

http://www.pad2pad.com

They also have their own custom software, and are cheaper than ExpressPCB for small quantities of PCBs with solder masks.

Toshi

Look in what "What software can I use" section of the BatchPCB FAQ:

http://www.batchpcb.com/index.php/Faq

Toshi

Why don't you like ExpressPCB? I am in the process of using their software to make a 1 17"x10" 4 layer board for <$300. You recommended them and so far so good, their software is excellent, although their power and ground planes are abit confusing at this point.

I love ExpressPCB's service. They make excellent quality boards.

However, I'd like to be able to create easy PCB's for prototyping i.e. single quantity with low cost. For instance, with the right software, you could probably get a prototype of your board for $150 or less at some of the other board houses.

That being said, ExpressPCB makes first rate boards and their software is easy to learn and use. When buying more than 12-14 boards, the cost goes down quickly. Three SBC-2 bulk orders and one SBC-3 bulk order are proof.

The inner layers are a little different, but could be very handy for SMT parts where you don't have room to add the power traces. I put together a layout for adding a 65816 to a 6502 socket that was just larger than the 40 pin DIP outline and also worked up a board for a Zicor USART to almost replace a 28 pin 6551, using the 4-layer boards. I didn't actually have either one built, but I have the files if anyone is interested.

Daryl

I switched over to Kicad, an open source EDA with nets and gerber outputs.

_________________
"My biggest dream in life? Building black plywood Habitrails"

I currently use the gEDA toolchain myself. I haven't heard of Kicad before; I'll have to explore it further in a future project.

http://www.gpleda.org/index.html

My best friend turned me onto it. I tis a free open source bugger that generates Gerbers. There is a script to import from Orcad, but I havent used it yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kicad

One thing nice is a 3D viewer. You can create newe library parts using a free 3D program called Wings. Here is a simple LED flasher I did:

http://www.nightmarepark.com/public/Pic ... ev%202.jpg

I got certified in PADS but can't afford it, and this is a good alternative. It is a wee bit screwball by comparison, but it works pretty decently with a good quick speed.

_________________
"My biggest dream in life? Building black plywood Habitrails"

There are a lot of tradeoffs to make in the free PCB design tool marketplace. For free, you often have to make concessions on at least one of these three areas of performance:

1. Design size -- use the tool for free, until your boards get too big. Then you have to pay for the Software upgrade.

2. True Open Source -- gets you away from fees of all sorts, but if the tool doesn't do what you need it to, it's really difficult to get enhancements...unless you roll up your sleeves and become a contributing member of the tool development team.

3. Capabilities -- the tool is free, and I can build designs of ANY size, but the tool is aggravatingly simple.


One tool to consider is PCB123. The tool is subsidized by Sunstone, the same PCB manufacturer that operates as PCBexpress, but aren't we all designing PCBs so as to manufacture them? Sunstone distributes a fully-enabled tool, with realtime board fab quoting, and a mechanism that allows you to get Digi-Key pricing for the parts you're designing with.
They put their pricing right up front -- no unpleasant surprises to your project budget after you've already spent days doing your design work.

To top it off, PCB123 has 24/7/365 live technical support. For real. Even if you're a basement hobbyist.

They're worth a look. You can make up your own mind about PCB123.

Will download tonight but am off put by the comparison chart. I cannot compare with one product Iw as certified for, PADS which is quite popular and Kicad isnt compared which also sports a 3D design wizard. It would also be nice to see what tools a,b,c,d are. I can figure tool D to be PCAD possibly, but it is a misnomer as PCAD does real time DRC.

Pads also allows schematic to board update real time and vice versa. The cost is not consistant with any of the packages listed, being around 3K or so.
It does had a symbol creation wizard.

Express PCB does have online ordering and is also free. It does not have Gerber output capabilites and I have not been able to use netlists on it to save my life. It is a very primitive program but it does its job. Parts wizarding is quite easy, though.

Kicad is a freebie with Gerber outputs and 3D output.

Yours with free and Gerber output is worth a shot, will try and compare when Ig et a chance here....

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"My biggest dream in life? Building black plywood Habitrails"

Nolan, regarding your post above (I won't quote the whole thing): Can you tell us something about PCB123. Your website doesn't say much about it. I suppose the idea is that we just download it and try it, but apparently it's Windows-only and I've quit using Windows for good (it's not worth my health, as I was always angry with it) and am a very happy Linux user now. I have Windows emulator software which I've used only enough to be reminded on why I abandoned Windows 2.5 years ago.

Since even most hobbyists don't get their computer free, or their EPROM (or other device) programmer free, etc., they would probably be willing to pay for CAD as long as it's economical, like $99 instead of thousands. At my last place of work I got very proficient at OrCAD which had more bugs than an ant hill and drove us insane. (What can you expect from a company who after 25 years still doesn't know how to draw the schematic symbol for a resistor correctly?) After coming to the small company I'm at now which consisted of about four people at the time and had a low start-up budget, I asked for CAD, and was told to get and try a lot of demos and pick my two favorites. One was about $2K (I think it was Maxi-PC) and my second choice that was only $375 which was Easy-PC Pro from Number One Systems in England. The non-Pro version was only $175 IIRC and even on a 16MHz '286 the screen re-draws were almost instant, as it was written in assembly language. That non-pro version would have been quite adequate for what most people on this forum are doing. It went up to 8 layers but was, as you say, a little too limited for what we needed to do at work. They got me the Pro version, and it initially had a lot of bugs too but Number One Systems was extremely responsive and fast to fix them until it was nearly perfect. Then they started adding extras that frankly were of no use to our kind of work, and some changes were rather distasteful, so I quit updating. The most complex board I've done with it had 12 layers and 1500 holes and none of them were vias. Now of course I'm doing SMT with it.

I'm still using EPC Pro under DOS on a separate computer. What I like about it is that it gives the flexibility to do what I want, unlike OrCAD which always tried to second-guess me and tell me I can't do this or that because it did not understand our unusual needs. In fact, I do things with EPC Pro that it supposedly can't do but its flexibility lets me improvise and get what I want; and since I've recently learned to quickly do the conversion from Gerber 274D to 274X (sometimes taking several 274D files to form one 274X file for a very complex layer), my cheap 15-year-old CAD still does a great job for the most part. Unfortunately Number One Systems no longer supports the DOS versions, and last I checked, they no longer have anything that could be characterized as "power through simplicity." If this kind of software were offered again, it would be very attractive to a lot of potential customers. Just about the only updates I could ask for would be a Linux version, XYRS file output, and direct 274X output. I have separate gerbv gerber-viewer software (which was free) to view and check my 274X conversion, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to have that integrated into the CAD package. Edit, 12/1/16: I see there's a free 3D online gerber viewer at http://mayhewlabs.com/3dpcb . Output does need to be Gerber though, as I can't let proprietary software lock me into one board house.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

Garth, take a look sometime at Kicad, I think it can run under Linux. Open source, they tend to

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"My biggest dream in life? Building black plywood Habitrails"

For some reason, I suspect ExpressPCB and PCB Express are actually one and the same. I note that while ExpressPCB is located in Southern California, the shipments all arrive from Oregon, which is where PCB Express is located. Pure coincidence?