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 Post subject: Synertek 6502b?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:47 pm 
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http://www.vectronicsappleworld.com/archives/appleii/0002.php mentions 6502b for Apple III+ which "had custom external circuitry that provided a number of enhancements to the normal 6502 instruction set. These enhancements included an expanded addressing range, alternate stack and zero pages, and improved indirect addressing that was supported by a separate pointer".
I have never met documentation for this CPU. Could anybody help to find it? IMHO this 6502b may relate to unreleased Synertek 6516/6509.

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 Post subject: Re: Synertek 6502b?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:29 pm 
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Here's the BYTE article it's quoting from:
which says
Quote:
Processor: 6502B (2 MHz) with bank switching and enchanced indirect addressing, double stack and zero pages


I'm surprised it's a special processor - I thought all the instruction detection and address swizzling was done in Apple's custom support chips. See previous thread

Back to the BYTE article:
Quote:
The Apple III central processing unit is based on a 6502B microprocessor with custom external circuitry that provides a number of enhancements to the normal 6502 instruction set. These enhancements include expanded addressing range, alternate stack and zero pages, and improved indirect addressing that is supported by a separate pointer page.

Although the technical information provided by Apple is somewhat vague, apparently the 6502B is run at 2 MHz during the video blanking intervals and at 1 MHz while the beam is writing information onto your monitor screen. This provides an average speed of about 1.4 MHz, but the screen can be turned off temporarily during program execution to allow the processor to run at its full 2-MHz speed, if desired.

While a normal 6502B can address a maximum of 64K bytes of memory, the Apple III uses bank switching to expand this range to a theoretical maximum of 512K bytes.

In fact I think we can read this information as saying that the 6502B is merely a 2MHz 6502, but if we add Apple's custom support chip(s) and call that the Apple III's Central Processing Unit then all the above is consistent. No special sauce in the 6502B.


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 Post subject: Re: Synertek 6502b?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:31 pm 
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(I think the word "external" in the phrase "custom external circuitry" is the big hint.)


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 Post subject: Re: Synertek 6502b?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:35 pm 
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A 6502B is just a 6502 rated for 3Mhz.

It looks like they used external logic chips to logically split the 64K address space into three banked areas with some logic to detect zero page and stack access and redirect them to a different pages.

http://apple3.org/Documents/Magazines/AppleIIIExtendedAddressing.html

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 Post subject: Re: Synertek 6502b?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:44 pm 
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I wonder if they needed a 3MHz part to give them the margins to run at 2MHz but with the 'switch box' in the access path to memory.


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 Post subject: Re: Synertek 6502b?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:14 pm 
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BitWise wrote:
A 6502B is just a 6502 rated for 3Mhz.

It looks like they used external logic chips to logically split the 64K address space into three banked areas with some logic to detect zero page and stack access and redirect them to a different pages.

http://apple3.org/Documents/Magazines/AppleIIIExtendedAddressing.html

From the link:
Quote:
Whenever the 6502 uses a (ZP),Y addressing mode, and the zero page register ($FFD0) contains a number from $18 to $1F, the "switch box" uses the above-mentioned extra byte (called the "Xbyte") to perform "extended addressing."

How do you think the circuitry could detect the addressing mode? Is there a way for external circuitry to distinguish an instruction fetch from a data fetch?


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 Post subject: Re: Synertek 6502b?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:30 pm 
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That's what the SYNC pin is for, surely? Or did I miss something?


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 Post subject: Re: Synertek 6502b?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:39 pm 
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Thanks. Thus it is a kind of MMU. Similar external circuitry of the C128 is directly called MMU. The MMU of the C128 can be used for example for fast memory block moves. It is interesting that the C264 series use CPU in a way of the Apple III: CPU has different frequencies depending on the screen beam position. So Commodore took a lot from the Apple III design. However the ill fate of the 6502 prevented the success of the Apple III, it was just quietly shut down by the management. The similar story occurred with the Apple IIx project.

IMHO the 6502A was too hot at 2 MHz and 6502B was just colder.

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Last edited by litwr on Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Synertek 6502b?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:38 am 
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The Apple III didn't fail because it has a 6502 in it. It failed because it was badly engineered and hellishly unreliable.


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 Post subject: Re: Synertek 6502b?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:19 am 
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On the other hand, it had no fan. So that's a win!


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 Post subject: Re: Synertek 6502b?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:51 pm 
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Chromatix wrote:
The Apple III didn't fail because it has a 6502 in it. It failed because it was badly engineered and hellishly unreliable.

The Apple III Plus had all drawbacks fixed and was sold quite well but according to Linzmayer, Owen. Apple Confidential 2.0. San Francisco: No Starch Press, 2004. Page 43.
Quote:
Although the III Plus boosted the installed user base to an estimated 120,000 units, Apple abruptly dropped the line in April 1984 and quietly removed it from the product list in September 1985[

I can understand Apple management because there was no prospects of the development of the 6502 architecture. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Synertek 6502b?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:00 pm 
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Nice quote! That article can be found here:
http://www.vectronicsappleworld.com/arc ... i/0002.php


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 Post subject: Re: Synertek 6502b?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:41 pm 
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Chromatix wrote:
The Apple III didn't fail because it has a 6502 in it. It failed because it was badly engineered and hellishly unreliable.



But I want one so bad. I just can't justify the expense. I've even thought about trading my A1200 for one but I think the Apple \\\ is actually worth more.

:-)

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