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Martin A
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:14 am 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Is there an overseas supplier that you can use that won't kill you with shipping charges?

Mouser ?
Their minimum order for free delivery doesn't seem to be too high
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jds
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:51 am 
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Martin A wrote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Is there an overseas supplier that you can use that won't kill you with shipping charges?

Mouser ?
Their minimum order for free delivery doesn't seem to be too high

I use AliExpress quite a bit, normally they have free shipping and the delivery times are good. I'm in New Zealand so Australia should be similar.
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DerTrueForce
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:14 pm 
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Location: Australia
I don't want to spend a great deal for a while, because my family and I are going to England soon-ish. AU$60 is a biggish spend for me. I'm a bit of a tightwad by habit, because I'm not regularly employed and I had virtually no money of my own for quite a while.
Digi-key's free shipping threshold is $60 as well, but with them, I actually found a logic probe in about 20 minutes(at a guess. And for some reason, a logic probe is considered a specialty item). I remember wasting at least an hour on Mouser's site a while back, looking for the same thing. Mouser is good if you know exactly what you're looking for(like a 65C02), but if you're looking for a non-specific logic probe, it's either a mass of data to sort through, or it's not in the section you looked in, or you get probes for logic analyzers, which is not what I'm after. That's been my experience with Mouser's website.
I don't particularly want to go to Amazon, as their Australian site is a mockery, from what I've seen. I do prefer to buy within my own country where possible. It very often isn't(especially in my areas of interest), which irks me.

jds: I'll have a look at AliExpress, see what they have on offer.

BDD: I have finished the schematic, but I'll wait until tomorrow to upload it, so I can go to the library to scan it in. Trying to photograph things like that is hard to get right.
As far as the Atmel PLD goes, would pulling it out and sticking it on a breadboard with a few wires as inputs and an LED array be acceptable? Even if I can't find the equation file for it, I know what it's intended to do. I've put the intended truth tables on the schematic as well.
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BigEd
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:20 pm 
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(This seems really cheap: https://www.jaycar.com.au/logic-tester-20mhz/p/QT2210)
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BigDumbDinosaur
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:31 pm 
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Tor wrote:
DerTrueForce wrote:
On another unrelated note, it's really hard to find a logic probe or in Australia with the suppliers I'm looking at.
I got one (B&K Precision DP21) via Amazon to Japan, a year or two ago. Very reasonable shipping.

The BK DP-21 is what I use and recommend. I have two of them, in fact, a sort of poor man's two-channel logic analyzer. :D

BigEd wrote:
(This seems really cheap: https://www.jaycar.com.au/logic-tester-20mhz/p/QT2210)

At that price they're basically giving it away. That probe has got good specs and has all necessary indications.

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BigDumbDinosaur
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:50 pm 
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DerTrueForce wrote:
AU$60 is a biggish spend for me. I'm a bit of a tightwad by habit, because I'm not regularly employed and I had virtually no money of my own for quite a while.

I fully understand. However, you are at an impasse with your machine right now and need at least a basic digital diagnostic tool to rule out a hardware bug as the cause of your trouble. The probe that Ed mentioned above is dirt cheap and more than good enough for your purposes.

Quote:
As far as the Atmel PLD goes, would pulling it out and sticking it on a breadboard with a few wires as inputs and an LED array be acceptable? Even if I can't find the equation file for it, I know what it's intended to do. I've put the intended truth tables on the schematic as well.

I was going to suggest that. Everything you are doing in the GAL is basic Boolean logic, which means simple lows and highs at the inputs will reveal what the GAL is doing. What I would do is tie each input to Vcc through a 3.3K resistor and then use clip leads to ground inputs that are supposed to be low for any given condition. You could then use LEDs on the outputs (with resistors to limit current) to see what is going on. Or you could do your observing with the new logic probe that you are going to buy. :D The probe would be better, since you will get a positive indication for both output states, which a simple LED setup won't give you. Either way, such testing should conclusively prove the logic is working—or not.

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DerTrueForce
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:07 pm 
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BigEd wrote:
(This seems really cheap: https://www.jaycar.com.au/logic-tester-20mhz/p/QT2210)

I am astounded. I looked on that site at least three times, and I missed that item. It looks suspiciously like they're on clearance, too. At that price, even if it's a dud, it'd be worth a shot. I'll order one from the stockist in town when I go in.
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DerTrueForce
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:42 am 
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I have attached the schematic.

The logic probe is on order, along with a few pad-per-hole breadboards.
Looking at the Jaycar page, they may not have any left, but again, it's worth a shot.


Attachments:
IttiaraSchematicV3.1.pdf [111.44 KiB]
Downloaded 56 times
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GaBuZoMeu
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:15 am 
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I hope that it is simply a sort of typo, but your memory map on the schematic shows mainly "0" and rarely "1" for the various /CE or /CS lines. A "1" in the rightmost part means "selected" I assume, which means a low level on the corresponding select line. Otherwise all the time 4 out of 5 bus members were selected simultaneously...

edit(1):
Similar is your logic diagram for PHI2 and RWB. When PHI2 is one either /RD or /WR but never both should be "0". During PHI2 = "0" they should both be "1".
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DerTrueForce
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:58 pm 
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I've made that sort of mistake before, when I was writing the the PLD equations.
Those are truth tables; the 1s and 0s don't necessarily match up to the signals. Phase 2 is signal-wise because it doesn't really have a "True" or a "False". 1 is asserted, and 0 is negated.
And I just realised that I made a mistake in there, too. The reset logic is signal-wise, not truth-wise like it should be. I have corrected that on the original, but I can't really edit that PDF. I should have had the scanner send it as an image...

This is my intended memory map:
Code:
$0000
|  RAM
$4FFF
$5000
|  DUART
$5FFF
$6000
|  VIA
$6FFF
$7000
|  65SPI
$7FFF
$8000
|  ROM
$FFFF
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GaBuZoMeu
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:57 am 
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Perhaps you can list which signal is connected to which pin on your GAL or post your .PLD file, so one can edit it.
Currently you have 15 signals connected. 18 are possible. You can add more address lines to enlarge your RAM area and squeeze the IO a little more.
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DerTrueForce
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:34 am 
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I haven't changed the PLD programming in ages. I'm still using the one attached to this post:http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4499&start=45#p52226
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GaBuZoMeu
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:50 am 
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I have taken your PLD an run it. It looks fine :)
Attachment:
File comment: Simulation results
ITTIARAPLD31_SIM_RESULTS.PNG
ITTIARAPLD31_SIM_RESULTS.PNG [ 19.18 KiB | Viewed 439 times ]


If you check under Compiler Options - Output Files - Doc File Options : Fuse Plot and Equations , you get a nice .DOC file:
Code:
*******************************************************************************
                                 IttiaraPLD31
*******************************************************************************

CUPL(WM)        5.0a Serial# 60008009
Device          g16v8as  Library DLIB-h-40-2
Created         Sun Jun 04 09:33:16 2017
Name            IttiaraPLD31
Partno          00
Revision        00
Date            30/01/2017
Designer        Engineer
Company         None
Assembly        None
Location        here

===============================================================================
                            Expanded Product Terms
===============================================================================

RAM =>
    !A12 & !A13 & A14 & !A15
  # !A14 & !A15

RD =>
    PHASE_2 & RW

RESP =>
    RESN

ROM =>
    A15

SPI =>
    A12 & A13 & A14 & !A15

UART =>
    A12 & !A13 & A14 & !A15

VIA =>
    !A12 & A13 & A14 & !A15

WR =>
    PHASE_2 & !RW


===============================================================================
                                 Symbol Table
===============================================================================

Pin Variable                                    Pterms   Max     Min   
Pol   Name              Ext     Pin     Type     Used   Pterms  Level   
--- --------            ---     ---     ----    ------  ------  -----   

    A12                         2        V        -       -       -     
    A13                         3        V        -       -       -     
    A14                         4        V        -       -       -     
    A15                         5        V        -       -       -     
    PHASE_2                     1        V        -       -       -     
 !  RAM                         18       V        2       8       1     
 !  RD                          16       V        1       8       1     
 !  RESN                        6        V        -       -       -     
    RESP                        12       V        1       8       1     
 !  ROM                         19       V        1       8       1     
    RW                          7        V        -       -       -     
 !  SPI                         14       V        1       8       1     
 !  UART                        13       V        1       8       1     
 !  VIA                         15       V        1       8       1     
 !  WR                          17       V        1       8       1     


LEGEND    D : default variable         F : field      G : group
          I : intermediate variable    N : node       M : extended node
          U : undefined                V : variable   X : extended variable
          T : function


===============================================================================
                                   Fuse Plot
===============================================================================

Syn   02192 - Ac0   02193 x

Pin #19  02048  Pol x  02120  Ac1 x
 00000 ------------x-------------------
 00032 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00064 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00096 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00128 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00160 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00192 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00224 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Pin #18  02049  Pol x  02121  Ac1 x
 00256 -x---x--x----x------------------
 00288 ---------x---x------------------
 00320 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00352 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00384 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00416 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00448 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00480 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Pin #17  02050  Pol x  02122  Ac1 x
 00512 --x------------------x----------
 00544 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00576 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00608 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00640 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00672 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00704 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00736 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Pin #16  02051  Pol x  02123  Ac1 x
 00768 --x-----------------x-----------
 00800 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00832 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00864 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00896 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00928 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00960 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 00992 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Pin #15  02052  Pol x  02124  Ac1 x
 01024 -x--x---x----x------------------
 01056 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01088 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01120 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01152 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01184 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01216 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01248 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Pin #14  02053  Pol x  02125  Ac1 x
 01280 x---x---x----x------------------
 01312 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01344 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01376 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01408 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01440 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01472 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01504 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Pin #13  02054  Pol x  02126  Ac1 x
 01536 x----x--x----x------------------
 01568 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01600 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01632 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01664 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01696 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01728 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01760 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Pin #12  02055  Pol -  02127  Ac1 x
 01792 -----------------x--------------
 01824 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01856 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01888 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01920 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01952 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 01984 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 02016 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


LEGEND    X : fuse not blown
          - : fuse blown

===============================================================================
                                 Chip Diagram
===============================================================================

                               ______________
                              | IttiaraPLD31 |
                  PHASE_2 x---|1           20|---x Vcc                     
                      A12 x---|2           19|---x !ROM                     
                      A13 x---|3           18|---x !RAM                     
                      A14 x---|4           17|---x !WR                     
                      A15 x---|5           16|---x !RD                     
                    !RESN x---|6           15|---x !VIA                     
                       RW x---|7           14|---x !SPI                     
                          x---|8           13|---x !UART                   
                          x---|9           12|---x RESP                     
                      GND x---|10          11|---x                         
                              |______________|
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GaBuZoMeu
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:26 am 
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If you didn't get this super cheap logic probe BigEd found or delivery takes weeks and you have a spare region on your breadboard and a spare 74HC14 you may build a (very very simple) logic probe yourself:
Attachment:
Probe.PNG
Probe.PNG [ 73.28 KiB | Viewed 433 times ]

The signal is fed through R1 and twice inverted by IC1a and IC1b. This is then applied to two LEDs, the green is lit when signal is low, the red is lit when signal is high.
If there is no signal (open circuit or high impedance) IC1a, R2, C1 should oscillate, causing both LEDs to turn on.
The path through IC1f is to catch positive pulses of short duration. They would discharge C3 rapidly causing D5 to turn on for a while because charging C3 takes much longer.
This should work for short negativ pulses as well (IC1c..C2..D6).
The dashed magenta colored lines are an option. They parallel IC1f and IC1c so that charge and discharge currents doubles. This could help to make even shorter pulses visible. R5 may then omitted.

But beware: none of this is tested, its just an :idea: :!: :lol:
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BigDumbDinosaur
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:39 pm 
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GaBuZoMeu wrote:
If you didn't get this super cheap logic probe BigEd found...

There, of course, is no excuse to not get it. :lol:

Quote:
or delivery takes weeks and you have a spare region on your breadboard and a spare 74HC14 you may build a (very very simple) logic probe yourself...

Just a friendly suggestion: it's best to avoid color in schematics. There are one or two folks :roll: around here who have some degree of color-blindness. :D One of them has little visual acuity in his left eye. :evil:

BTW, variations on your circuit have been around for some time, so I expect that it will work as intended.

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