I'm quite happy with them. In addition to the photos and my "diary" of my experience with dirtypcbs.com on this page, I made a second order from them about five months ago, and you can see the photos of those boards in the second half of this blog post.

I did a fair bit of research on them before ordering anything. The most common complaint I saw was that the solder mask is often a bit off, and I saw a photo where someone had pads for a surface mount IC where the solder mask that was supposed to go between each pad was instead on top of the pads. So in my first order I made all of the holes in the solder mask an extra 2 mills larger, and in the second order it appears I either forgot to do that or decided I didn't care, but the boards I received had the extra 2 mills of clearance anyway, so apparently they add it automatically. I also notice there's no solder mask between the surface mount IC pads. It appears to either have fallen off during manufacturing due to being so thin, or it was intentionally removed at some point, as there are bits of it visible in places on some of the boards, making it obvious that they didn't increase the clearance around the pads enough to completely eliminate it, and yet it isn't there. Of course, if this worries you, the smart thing to do is to simply block out the solder mask for the whole row of pads, since if there's no copper between the pads then there's no need for a solder mask between the pads. ...but I wouldn't even worry about it, as it appears they're aware of the problem and take steps to prevent it.

None of the other complaints I saw really made any sense. It was all junk like "well, they do look a bit worse than the boards I got from such and such" with no explanation of what exactly they didn't like about them, which is just nonsense. The things look beautiful to me, so I'm not sure what such people's standards are, other than perhaps that they're trying to feel better about having spent $200 for ten boards from another manufacturer. Just do a Google Image search for "dirtypcbs.com" and you can see plenty of examples of their work and judge for yourself.

If you look at the boards with a magnifier, there are tiny indentations on every pad, making it clear that they're electrically testing the boards. This particularly amuses me since my PCB software doesn't actually use the "pad" Gerber command for SMT pads, it just creates tracks that aren't covered with solder mask, yet their systems still identified those tracks as points to be electrically tested. That's not too surprising as any track not covered by solder mask is an obvious test candidate, but it's still something that less-advanced software could have missed.

My only complaint is that they can't do non-plated holes, since even if you make a hole with no copper around it, they still plate the hole.

They are also nice in that they will allow you to panelize designs (something most manufacturers won't allow), a fact which some people have totally abused and yet they still manufactured their board for them anyway. The routing on that board is so rough that I'm convinced someone had to pull them out of a machine and route them by hand. The routing on my boards, despite the curvy outline, is as smooth as can be.

Anyway, I love the boards and I love the price. It would be nice if the shipping were faster (and it can be if you're willing to pay for it), but 3-4 weeks kind of works for me in a way, in that it's long enough that I'm not getting my hopes up about receiving the boards every day, but rather, it's so far off that I forget all about them and find something else to do, then one day when I'm not even thinking about it they arrive and I'm like "yay!"

Also, you do all know about PCB Shopper, right?

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

If you click on the about button http://dirtypcbs.com/about.php you get a bunch of information about their capabilities and other useful information. You can also find a CAM job for Eagle you can download. You can also download a DRC file to check against their capabilities. I slightly modified the CAM job to include some other layers to be put on the silk screen. I recommend to read everything about CAM jobs on dangarous prototypes they have an excellent tutorial. I also made some other changes to the CAM job. First with Eagle 7.5 and newer you should use the EXCELLON_24 as the device for the drill file and not the default EXCELLON which is in the original CAM job. Then I also inclucded a path in the output file so the gerber files are exported to a directory within the project folder (the directory must exist before the CAM job is run).

The Dirtypcb site seems to be run by the guys of dangerous prototypes and they only act as a relay to several board houses. I have now done 2 PCBs with them. One was the PCB for ROMulus the 2nd. I was very pleased by the quality and especially the price. I was using the custom size service for my 10x15cm board, which means higher costs and exactly 10 pieces. But at a total cost of 58USD shipping included this is still very cheap in comparison to the local board houses. The other board I just received on friday is for another SBC project based on a DCJ-11 (so it will not show here), same size same prize but different color (yellow, which fortunately is not a light yellow so the white silk screen is still very readable). Both boards are 2-layer and I restricted myself to 12mil trace width and used a minimum drill size of 14mil for the vias. This allows to use a grid of 0.025mil sufficient to have one signal between 0.1" spaced ICs pins. You can have a trace and a via as close as the grid allows, you cannot have two vias as close as one grid unit. Vias must be off at least 2 grid units (including when you go one up and one sideways -> 1 unit diagonally is enough). You can try to

I use Eagle 7.5 on a Macintosh. To send your data to Dirtypcb you need to create gerber files and ZIP them into an archive. So any CAD able to create gerber files will do.

I have used SMD parts on both designs, mostly 0805 resistors and capacitors but also ICs with TQFP-44 and SOI-20/24 and SOJ-32/36. So just the things I can still solder by hand.

My brother used http://www.pcbway.com for his boards and was very happy with the results. They have even more options and they recently dropped their price, so in many cases will be cheaper than Dirtypcbs, especially as when you order "only" 5 PCBs (I always got 10 pieces now but I will barely use more than 2 )

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

I don't want to hijack the conversation, but this is sort of on the original topic, as far as I can see:

Am I the only one making my own boards?

I have yet to have the silkscreening to turn out perfect, so they don't look professional, but otherwise I get good results. I don't know how it could get cheaper, but of course there is labor involved.

If you're only ever going to do one board in your life, it would be cheaper to use a professional fab shop. The initial investment is well over $100 for a high quality two-layer board. But they are dirt cheap after that.

If you're only ever going to do four-layer boards it probably doesn't pay either. I haven't attempted that yet, but it doesn't look easy.

I use the PCB Fab In a Box method. Sure, you can do the same thing without their stuff, but, I find it makes more sense in the long run to use their stuff. And no I don't have a pecuniary interest.

Prior to this, I masked boards with a resist pen in a CNC machine spindle. I've also milled boards. I've laid out boards by hand, too. None of those methods gave me results as good and as easy, though.

Something I found being discussed on another forum is some newfangled silkscreening kit for making T-shirts and things. I haven't looked into that yet, but that might be a possibility, too.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

That's the thing.
After my initial investment (not per job), I can probably make any quantity of 8x10 boards for a little over a dollar a board. Small boards even cheaper; but of course at some point it makes sense just to pay to have it done.

Most of my boards are one-offs, and they only cost me time and material. Unfortunately I don't even know what I've paid for materials because it's been so long since I've bought them.

I did .005/.005 in about a 1x1 space on one job. I didn't think it would work, but it did. I still don't like to if I don't have to. I cannot do soldermask. My smallest vias have been .022" diameter, with probably .040" pads (I'd have to look to verify the pad diameter, but it's probably right). I could probably do smaller vias, but so far I haven't needed to.

I have quite a library of software like that but unfortunately nothing that would help with this. (Well, frankly, I have used AutoCAD to layout boards in the past.) You need CAD if you use a fab shop too. Of course the difference is that some fab shops let you use their CAD, which as you eluded to, is much better than the free stuff.

I use Fritzing, which isn't easy, but it works. I'm happy to use it because I have nothing better to compare it to.


In 1980, you wouldn't have hesitated, at any size. But you wouldn't have used a text editor, probably.

I might still have some large boards that I laid out by hand. They're hideous to look at, but work. Far, far too much work for one job, considering the alternatives now. Some of my milled boards were just as much work. But once I've written the program (by hand), subsequent boards are not as much work.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

I have some PCD endmills but I don't think I used them for that. Carbide holds up pretty well, especially if you're only removing copper, and not making many boards. I only made maybe a half dozen that way. It was too time consuming for me. Etching with the printed transfer resist is much faster, a lot less work (I have to program the CNC by hand), and gives better results, at least in my case. The hardest part is getting the two sides of the board aligned.

Frankly, I've had no trouble with HSS drills, and I''ve drilled thousands of holes in PCB material. Though when a drill that small finally gets old it usually just breaks unexpectedly, and replacing them is very unpainful so I've probably used more than I remember.

I have the machine and endmills prior, so I don't quite know how to cost it. I could figure it out if I had to, but it would be different for someone intending to make PCBs from the start.

Here is the first board I made with the PCB Fab in a Box process.

It's not pretty, but it's far better than anything I did previously. Ones I made since then were much nicer.

Very nice boards you have done with your own methods. My experiences with producing my own boards have not been very exiting, that was about 30 years ago. I did a lot of etching. I used a lot of different methods like painting with water resistant pens, using tape and stencils for ICs or thermotransfer sheets. But all that was a lot of work and consumed a lot of time. I then switched to verowire and did almost all Projects with verowire, which is very fancy and even complex Projects did work quite well. I also have a NC milling machine and tried milling PCBs. Nothing was really satisfying.

If I take into account all aspects then I doubt very much that selfmade boards are cheaper than using a board house. Dirtypcbs will get you at least 8 dual layer boards with a size of up to 5cm x 5cm for 14USD including shipping. The boards have platedthrough vias and pads and a nice silkscreen and soldermask. You can even have your own shape, provided it fits into a 5cm x 5cm area. If this is not big enough then there is the 10cm x 10cm option for 25USD.

My boards used a non-standard which is not applicable for the cheap Service. And also requires the Maker license of Eagle for 162USD. But I have a complete workflow without the hassle of creating two layouts (top and bottom), Transfer them perfectly alligned to the two sides of the copper plated board and drilling somewhat between 500 to 1000 holes. I draw my schematic, if reequired add parts to my personal library, create the PCB, place the components and layout the Connections. Then I run the CAM Job, zip the files and upload it. For me this "simplicity" is worth to spend some extra bucks and saves me a lot of time.

(I'm interested to hear more about your J11 adventure if you care to start an OT thread! 18MHz on a breadboard has to be interesting!)

Edit: Peter did start the thread, elsewhere: http://anycpu.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=304

Or wouldn't a thread at anycpu.org be a better place? I assume you use the same username there

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?