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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:21 pm 
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Cypress Semiconductor Corp., who makes very high speed static RAM, disagrees with you

No they don't. The order of connection is only important if the trace impedance is significant. At these frequencies and distances it isn't.

And if you really care about these tiny effects, the first thing you should do is get rid of the DIP parts, IC sockets, and leaded capacitors.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:09 pm 
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There are links to Dr. Johnson's short articles on bypass-capacitor choice and layout at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2247&p=24906#p24906.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:55 pm 
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The good Dr. Johnson also disagrees with Cypress Semiconductor Corp
Quote:
Dr. Johnson replies:

Carl, I like your first approach best (Figure 1a). The idea of sequencing your bypass connections from the VCC plane, to a bypass capacitor, and then to you IC power pin is very old. Those who advocate this approach usually justify the circuit (if there is any explanation at all) as an attempt to construct a filter network with the stated objective of "keeping power supply noise contained at the IC site, preventing it from getting out onto the larger pcb".

In the context of a high-speed digital pcb with solid power and ground planes, sequencing the bypass connection does not accomplish that goal. A power filter by itself does not prevent noise escaping into the pcb. Even if you power your IC from its own internal battery source, without involving the external power system at all, you still can't prevent noise escaping into the pcb because it couples into the pcb through the I/O traces of your IC.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:31 pm 
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Arlet wrote:
Quote:
Cypress Semiconductor Corp., who makes very high speed static RAM, disagrees with you

No they don't. The order of connection is only important if the trace impedance is significant. At these frequencies and distances it isn't.

And if you really care about these tiny effects, the first thing you should do is get rid of the DIP parts, IC sockets, and leaded capacitors.


My computer has a system clock rate of less then 10Mhz. It uses through hole parts, including the caps, with sockets. To make the board layout simpler, I have gone for 4 layers: two signal layers on the outsides, and ground and Vcc in interior layers. While the board would probably function without a single decoupling cap, I have decided to try to do things "properly" and include decoupling caps on all ICs.

So the next question is: how should I connect the caps up?

Should I really not bother using traces and just place them close by? That is certainly the easiest solution, but is it "right"? Under what conditions would it not be the best arrangement?

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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:44 pm 
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The lowest-impedance traces for them are the planes themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:36 am 
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If it's easy and it works, then it is "right". What more do you hope to get ?


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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:56 am 
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Arlet wrote:
If it's easy and it works, then it is "right". What more do you hope to get ?


Very pleased; yet more reasons why power planes are useful, though a bit of a splurge, even on through-hole designs. Thanks guys. PCB design amended.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:01 am 
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Ok here's my current layout. It's a 4 layer board wit the VCC and GND hidden. I've still got to route a few more tracks(they are the ultra thin yellow lines), but most of it's done. I used the remaining two tracks to route all the signals with a very occasionally dip into the VCC or GND layers when there wasn't a more feasible route.
What do people think?


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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:45 am 
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You made some interesting component placement choices, which seem (to this untrained eye) to be causing a longer-than-necessary average trace length. Was this placement random, or was it affected by external constraints, like edge connector placement?

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:27 am 
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This may help: All the board houses I've used have absolutely no difficulty and no extra charge to go down to .006"/.006" trace and space. You appear to be using much wider traces and spaces. You can run two traces between pads on a given layer. This does not make the board any less reliable or any more delicate, so don't be afraid of it. Then I'm sure you can avoid using the power plane for signal traces. Some board manufacturers can go down to .002/.002 (and have been doing it for 25 years), but that does cost a lot extra.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:55 am 
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I agree with Garth. Having the option of putting two traces between pins opens up a lot of extra possibilities. Also if you have 6 mil trace and clearance, it helps to set your grid also to 6 mil.

Edit: or use a slightly larger 6.25 mil grid, which makes it easier to align with 100 mil pin spacing, while not sacrificing much in terms of routing density. Also, check your hole sizes and pad rings. Bigger holes and pads makes for easier insertion and soldering, but leaves less room for traces to squeeze through them. If you use sockets, check their datasheets for recommended hole diameter.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:23 am 
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banedon wrote:
Ok here's my current layout. It's a 4 layer board wit the VCC and GND hidden. I've still got to route a few more tracks(they are the ultra thin yellow lines), but most of it's done. I used the remaining two tracks to route all the signals with a very occasionally dip into the VCC or GND layers when there wasn't a more feasible route.
What do people think?

Why are you qualifying /RAM_SEL with Ø2?

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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:02 am 
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I would have thought 8 (or even 10?) mil traces on a 25 mil grid would be sufficient for such a board. It does not have any SMT or even PLCC parts. It might introduce a few more vias but that is no biggie.

PCB layout is an art, indeed.

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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:35 am 
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It might introduce a few more vias but that is no biggie.

But it would be nice to route the last couple of signals without having to dip into the power/ground planes.


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 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:19 pm 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
banedon wrote:
Ok here's my current layout. It's a 4 layer board wit the VCC and GND hidden. I've still got to route a few more tracks(they are the ultra thin yellow lines), but most of it's done. I used the remaining two tracks to route all the signals with a very occasionally dip into the VCC or GND layers when there wasn't a more feasible route.
What do people think?

Why are you qualifying /RAM_SEL with Ø2?

So that it will only enable the RAM on the rising edge of Ø2. The address decoding scheme is from Gareth's Primer as I wanted a bit of speed and didn't want to us e a decoder or (C)PLD.

I don't have any real experience of PCB routing so I uased the defaults given to me for track thickness, etc. by Eagle. However, doesn't the extra copper in thicker tracks help over come resistance?

barrym95838 wrote:
You made some interesting component placement choices, which seem (to this untrained eye) to be causing a longer-than-necessary average trace length. Was this placement random, or was it affected by external constraints, like edge connector placement?

Mike


I needed to keep the core signalling components in the centre as they communicate with most other devices. The power can be (and will be) moved to the emptier end of the board - unless this is a bad idea. It got moved to where iot currently is from when i was ghoing to create a star ground setup.
Another issue was that I wanted a little extra space for routing the buses as I found that I ran out of space when I tried routing this board before. This might now not be an issue if I drop the trace thicknesses...


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