I'm currently bread-boarding my sbc and have had some problems, as the chips & bread-board I'm using are 30-35yrs old. My only "test equipment" is a multimeter. My problems could be caused by the bread-board, the chips or me.. it's hard to tell. So I've ordered new bread-boards and I've just received some WDC semi's to rule out functional problems. However, I need some test equipment.

I've been looking on Ebay at the logic analyzers, having never used one before I have some questions. This one looks like it might do the job, what do you guys think? Or is there something else you would suggest? As I'm buying a lot of stuff, I haven't got a lot of spare cash £50.. maybe £60.

_________________
All my stuff

There has been quite a bit of discussion around here on the topic of test equipment—and almost as many opinions as members. My opinion is that the most useful pieces of test equipment you can have are a good logic probe, a DMM (which you evidently have) and an oscilloscope, ideally a dual-channel unit with at least a 200 MHZ bandwidth. An adjustable power supply is also handy, but not essential. I'm sure others will weigh in with their suggestions, so brace yourself.

I've been working with digital electronics for some 45 years and have yet to find a use for a logic analyzer. When I built my first POC unit, it came up DOA due to a missing connection. I solved the problem using nothing more than my BK Precision DP-21 logic probe to troubleshoot.

_________________
x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!

I agree with BDD's points. A logic analyzer may be good for complex problems, but simple issues are far more common. A dual-trace oscilloscope and (optionally) a logic probe are what I'd suggest.

cheers,
Jeff

_________________
In 1988 my 65C02 got six new registers and 44 new full-speed instructions!
https://laughtonelectronics.com/Arcana/ ... mmary.html

Agreed, skip the logic analyzer for now. I'd suggest the DMM, the o-scope (at least two channels, bare minimum 20MHz, preferably at least 100MHz, and some decent x10 probes), and the logic probe may simply be overkill. You can do a lot of debugging with an LED and a resistor in series.

If you're using WDC chips, you can set up a single-cycle (or half-cycle!) clock source, wire LEDs to each of your signals of interest, and now you have a direct eye on what your program is doing. And you can keep an eye on far more signals than the little 8-channel (or 16-channel) USB widget can.

I'm not saying "don't get a logic analyzer", but I am saying "don't get a logic analyzer yet". At this stage, a good scope is likely a better investment.

Thanks guys, I wish I could afford an oscilloscope.. Okay, I'll skip the logic analyzer for now. What do you think of the Maplin's (spit,spit) logic probe, I could get that tomorrow.

_________________
All my stuff

(A secondhand scope is just within your budget, but there's a risk in case you land one which doesn't work properly.)

Bearing in mind that you're operating as a hobbyist, on a strict budget, I wonder if you'd do well with a cheap and cheerful analyser like
http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Logic_Pirate
It can't show you analogue problems, like noise or glitches or marginal levels, but it can show you what's happening in logic terms. Does anyone here have any experience with that kind of device?

I have a page in my 6502 primer on basic workbench equipment, at http://wilsonminesco.com/6502primer/BasicWkbench.html which also has a few good links for further reading. 20MHz dual-trace triggered oscilloscopes are sometimes free, if you can find a school or someone getting rid of old but functional equipment. A good pair of x10 probes is essential though, so make sure you get those with it or budget for them.

Like nyef said, if you're using the 65c02 (CMOS, not NMOS), you can do a single-cycle clock source with a pushbutton advance. There's a circuit for that, third one from the bottom on the clock generation page of the 6502 primer.

I don't expect any problems from the age of your ICs or breadboard. Actually, the new ICs that are much faster may be more problematic if you have poor construction methods, especially plug-in solderless breadboards which are the worst of all worlds for computer construction. You'll have to be especially careful about the clock distribution, and second, the ground connections. Wire-wrap is much better than solderless breadboard for this application. (Custom PC boards are best if you have the means to go that route.) Of interest are the 6502 primer page "Construction: Avoiding AC-Performance Problems" and the forum topic "Techniques for reliable high-speed digital circuits," and the links in those.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

If you are based in London why not visit the London Hackspace on an open evening and see if they have a logic analyser you could use.

https://london.hackspace.org.uk/

I'm a member of the rLab, the Reading Hackspace. We have some communal tools in our space and members will often bring in other tools to help people with projects.

http://rlab.org.uk/

_________________
Andrew Jacobs
6502 & PIC Stuff - http://www.obelisk.me.uk/
Cross-Platform 6502/65C02/65816 Macro Assembler - http://www.obelisk.me.uk/dev65/
Open Source Projects - https://github.com/andrew-jacobs

It's not so much their age as what they have been thru in that time Packed in suitcases, dragged from Canada and around Europe. They are embedded in the pink anti-static 1cm thick sponge, but their legs are in various states of tarnish. So I have been using dry fine wet&dry to gently shine them up.

The breadboards are the same breadboards I was using late '70s & early '80s to design 6802 controller cards that I made a living from. They have seen a lot of use/abuse so I'm sure that they are not a 100% now. Back then I did try w/w'ing because of it's dependability, just couldn't get into it, I would rather point to point solder even though it's more work. But, if I can find some decently priced w/w sockets I might try it again as I still have the w/w tools and my temperament is different now.

Of course, these are just temporary while I prototype the design, it will end up on a pcb. Back then, I was using rub down transfers on acetate to layout double-sided boards, after lots of drawing on paper. Now, I've been using Eagle to layout a number of boards and Seeed Studio to make the boards. It's been fun but there's not a lot of room (100*80mm) for a real system so this week I've been learning Kicad and it's not as bad as what I thought.

I've nearly finished reading those links Garth, interesting reads thanks for the info.

_________________
All my stuff

Sometimes new components as well as old components need to be tested.

I do know that if I hook up an LED to an Arduino without a resistor, the microcontroller will burn out because an LED doesn't really have resistance. Check your values and do some math.

What do you guys think of USB oscilloscopes? In particular this one and this one?

_________________
All my stuff

Measurable frequency up to... 3 kHz? "BMC" connectors? No probes included? This is a joke, right?

As for the other, by the numbers and included equipment it looks more reasonable, but 20MHz is still rather anemic. And it looks to be about what I paid for my scope, which was a used 200MHz Tektronix analog model.

A quick search of ebay.co.uk shows a couple of plausible, though not excellent, hits:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tektronix-2215-Oscilloscope-/331556596932?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4d32502cc4 60 MHz, will need probes, but looks to be in workable order.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TEKTRONIX-Oscilloscope-model-475-/161709648918?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item25a6a56c16 Don't know what the bandwidth is, probably pretty bad (and a quick web search to find a manual will tell you), but still dual-channel. This one is more of a risk, as the seller doesn't show it with any kind of signal input, and it will also need probes. Still might be worth the risk.

You would be bidding against other possible buyers on these, and shipment / pickup might be an issue, but the price (even if you have to buy probes separately) looks likely to be in your budget at this point.

I haven't used one yet but I found a good tutorial on Oscilloscopes:

http://www.njarc.org/scopes4dopes/

Tektronix "XYZs of Oscilloscopes"
http://aries.ucsd.edu/najmabadi/CLASS/C ... -Scope.pdf

lenzjo, the first one you link to is so slow it's worthless, even for audio. The second one looks very good for the price. nyef, your linked scopes do say "Condition: For parts or not working."

A couple of other topics we have on oscilloscopes are:
Cheap oscilloscope and other test equipment
Recommended oscilloscope features?

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

Yes, but reading the descriptions, one is because, when the intensity is ramped all the way up, the traces become "fuzzy", which is what they do as I understand it, and the other (which I clearly indicated was a risk) is being sold by someone who doesn't know how (or doesn't have the equipment) to make a suitable evaluation of condition.