6502.org Forum  Projects  Code  Documents  Tools  Forum
It is currently Sun Nov 24, 2024 3:14 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:28 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: England
Any idea on the resistances involved? And the resistances of vias? I noticed quite a few layer changes in this layout, but it might not amount to anything significant.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:43 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Southampton, UK
Remember I'm a beginner. ;) Also I'm using some somewhat painful software. That board is entirely hand routed.

Yeah the vias on the power rails weren't ideal. I haven't noticed a measureable resistance across a run with the most vias. But like I said they are not ideal. Luckily they are well made.

_________________
8 bit fun and games: https://www.aslak.net/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:09 am
Posts: 8546
Location: Southern California
Other things come into play here. One is the thickness of the copper. On outer layers, 1oz copper is pretty common, but you might have 2oz. If you didn't specify, see what the board manufacturer does as standard. 1oz copper is 0.0014" thick. As far as what the trace itself can carry, an 8-mil (0.008") trace of 1oz copper can handle half an amp at a modest 20°C rise. That's probably a lot more than most would expect. The other thing is how much voltage is would drop, and that of course depends also on the trace length. The resistivity of copper is about 0.67µΩ-inch, meaning a 1" cube of copper has 0.67µΩ of resistance between the ends. So to get the resistance of the trace, multiply that by the number of inches of length of the trace (let's say 3" for the sake of discussion), and divide by the cross-sectional area of the trace which in the case of your 0.040" trace of (I'm assuming) 1.4"-thick copper is 0.0014"x0.040"=0.000056 sq. in.. 0.67µΩx3/0.000056=36mΩ. Yep, 36 milliohms, nowhere near the 1.3 ohms of the fuse. If you had a quarter of an amp running through that 3" 0.040" trace then, it would drop 0.25"x.0.036=0.009V, or nine millivolts.

All that is to say don't worry about your trace width. It's totally fine. :lol:

Quote:
That board is entirely hand routed.

That's actually good. Autorouters do a poor job, and I'm not aware of any that can place or move parts during autorouting to get good density.

Quote:
Yeah the vias on the power rails weren't ideal. I haven't noticed a measureable resistance across a run with the most vias.

The length of vias is too short to worry about them much for resistance. If you like, you can fill them in with solder to reduce the resistance.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:28 pm
Posts: 10986
Location: England
Sheet resistance is usefully expressed in Ohms per square. It's relatively easy to estimate the number of squares in a short track by eye, or of course you can divide the length by the width. That track you describe - 1.4" long and 40 thou wide - is 35 squares, and so your calculation that it has 36mΩ resistance tells us that tracks of this thickness have 1mΩ per square. That's easy to remember!

[Edit to add: elswhere, I see "Spoiler summary: The sheet resistance of 1oz copper foil is about 0.5mΩ per square."]

(Less helpfully, I can tell you that a wire with an eighth of an inch diameter has a resistance of one Ohm per kilofoot. See http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Wire-Gauge_Ampacity which might be an interesting site to browse.)

Cheers
Ed


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:50 pm
Posts: 3367
Location: Ontario, Canada
Speaking of ground/supply issues, good PCB layout can keep inductance to a minimum -- even using ordinary, skinny traces.

Of course the ideal ground "rail" is a plane extending across the entire area. But a grid of ordinary traces can come close to the same effect (with a comparatively fine grid naturally yielding better results than a sparse one). This diagram from an old RCA app note illustrates the idea. Of course it doesn't matter which traces are on the top or the bottom as long as you get a pattern of more-or-less horizontal & vertical paths -- with a via at every junction.
Attachment:
Ground Plane (approximated).gif
Ground Plane (approximated).gif [ 56.69 KiB | Viewed 304 times ]

Aslak3, I hope you don't mind if I show a spot where your design could benefit from closer adherence to this approach.
Attachment:
crystal gnd-path.gif
crystal gnd-path.gif [ 75.72 KiB | Viewed 304 times ]
Your grid has a gap -- a missed opportunity. It would've been good to run a ground trace from cpu pin 1 toward the right, joining with the other ground trace near pin 40.

Of course there are dozens of signal traces, and for each of those circuits the return current is carried by the ground/supply traces. One of the circuits that's particularly affected by the missing link is the circuit that connects the CPU with C1 & C2 (associated with the crystal). Although the left ends of C1/C2 have nice, direct connections to the CPU, the return path for those capacitors' current is substantially longer than necessary (as shown in yellow). If, as suggested, there were a ground trace from cpu pin 1 toward the right, the return current for C1/C2 wouldn't energize such a big loop. And keeping the loop area small is how you minimize inductance. (In case anyone's wondering, wider traces are of little use in reducing inductance because they don't reduce the loop area.)

-- Jeff

_________________
In 1988 my 65C02 got six new registers and 44 new full-speed instructions!
https://laughtonelectronics.com/Arcana/ ... mmary.html


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 49 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: