I think what Whartung was saying (and I agree) is that many vintage computer enthusiasts come to this place to discuss the lowest level: how the 6502 works internally, how to build your own computer using the information from Garth's webpages, meet others who have already done such a thing etc.

I bet most people on this forum have worked with Commodores, Apples, Ataris and Nintendos at some point in time, but at 6502.org, I get the feeling that all the differences between those systems (differences between specific hardware and differences in opinion about how good or bad they were) are tossed aside. This website is about the 6502 and related CPUs, and most of the time we don't get distracted by the non-important stuff.

While there has been much discussion in this thread that I've enjoyed following and contributing to, I'm sensing that everyone still agrees on the basic issue: We would like to provide 6502 newbies with something that they can use to build their own 6502-based system, that preferably has a real processor, can do something useful, is not too expensive and should consist of components that are available at websites such as Digikey, Jameco or Mouser.

Some newbies may want to try emulators first, but they probably end up here when they're ready to build some hardware, or use some pre-built hardware that's not a vintage system from eBay. In the last 2.5 years that I've been working on my project, I've been getting enough attention that it makes me feel that there are a lot of people who would be interested in learning (or teaching!) about basic CPU technology that manifests itself in the 6502. And because my project does the bitbanging of the 6502 pins from a Propeller, it goes one step further and potentially gives students a look at what happens at the pin/cycle/datasheet level -- if they're interested.

I remember when I was 15 or so years old, I figured it wouldn't be too hard to build my own computer. I read about self-build projects like the Elektor Junior but it was simply too expensive and I couldn't think of a use for a computer so I never had one or built one. But I remember how much those books and articles made my hands itch to make something myself, even if it was just to show it off to my parents, family and friends. If it would have been possible back then to build a $50 computer kit that would have started out with no code at all but I could make it do whatever I wanted it to do, I might have gotten one just for the heck of it.

Maybe not all newbies will eventually buy a project (in kit form or ready-made); maybe some of them will buy a kit but will never build it. But for me, designing a kit and dealing with some of the technical aspects, sales aspects, and social aspects has been very educational, and I'm not even done yet. What matters is that eventually, we can pass on the sense of accomplishment that one gets when one builds their own computer from components, and makes it work. When I showed my grandkids that I have a Commodore 4032 now, they didn't even shrug, let alone make me pull it out and power it up to see how it worked. But I know they like soldering and tinkering and they enjoyed their visit to the Computer History Museum last year. And I'm pretty sure that, by letting them put one of my kits together, I can make them understand how I felt when I typed my first Basic program on a 4032 in school in when I was 12 or 13.

===Jac

LOL: Lego, Arduino. You don't learn much from a prebuilt microcontroller using Python or C. I'm tired of people in my school calling themselves "hackers" because they know how to use command prompts and Linux. That's more noobish than me. Also since I have been with vintage computing, I noticed companies that used to make processors and computers making crap

Try as you might, you can't build everything from scratch.

When I was in junior high, I had visions of making even my own transistors. I hadn't heard of ICs yet. As Ed put it so well, there are plenty of stopping off points between that and the top-level systems stuff. One of our sons is way up there in the systems stuff, working for an IT company, but doesn't even know what a NAND gate is. I'm at a much lower level than he is, and don't wish to get into his world.

LOL: Lego, Arduino. You don't learn much from a prebuilt microcontroller using Python or C.

This is why folks like Garth and me try to encourage working as close to the bare metal as you can. The only way to see what's going on under the hood is by opening it and getting your hands metaphorically dirty. That isn't possible if an Arduino or Raspberry PI is the thing running your "homebrew computer," since the "hood" is bolted shut.

... And if anybody thinks there's not much to learn with an AVR, I challenge you to duplicate this:
http://www.linusakesson.net/scene/craft/ (note: runs on 8 bit CPU, uses only 1kB of RAM, and 8.5 kB
of Flash memory, and has no video or sound hardware).

I am amazed and impressed. Bit-banging VGA and using the SPI port as a video shifter is too clever...
wow. Does Atmel know about this demo of yours?

not color, but something similar with the 6522's shift register to get raster graphics on an analog oscilloscope:
viewtopic.php?t=1881&start=3

To go along with this, some sort of sdcard-based disk drive emulator might be a decent peripheral, as new five-and-a-quarter disks might not be easy to find these days.

When I crank up my Apple ][ (which I haven't in a year, sadly), I still have a tingling feeling in my belly.