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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:09 pm 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
the character generator ROM [...] will take up space (4KB) in the memory map.
To be clear, we're just talking about 4KB of data that could be stored in an (E)EPROM. That may be trivial, or not, depending whether your existing ROM has extra capacity available. Another option, FWIW: if the system has mass storage -- SD, perhaps -- then on bootup the character generator data could be copied straight from there to the 8563 or 8568, bypassing the SBC's memory entirely. But, like you, I don't find the 8563 or 8568 to be my cup of tea.

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I got one of those devices and ended up setting it aside
Here's where our preferences differ. I'd rather have the bit-mapped display than the hardware-generated cursor. :D

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:38 am 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
It's not beautiful but not nearly as bad as you might suggest.

The pixel timing is definitely off in places giving thick and thin opposing sides to some of the characters but its definitely usable as an interface for a SBC.

They've tried to cover the chip numbers on the board with a marker pen but it some kind of PIC24F thats generating a feed of colour, font glyph data and attribute bits into the CPLD which then generates the RGB pixel signals. I suspect it uses SPI to clock in the data and that sometimes there is a bit of jitter causing the clock pulses to be uneven.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:30 pm 
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BitWise wrote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
It's not beautiful but not nearly as bad as you might suggest.

The pixel timing is definitely off in places giving thick and thin opposing sides to some of the characters but its definitely usable as an interface for a SBC.

Funny how you are echoing my thoughts on the timing. I've seen that sort of thing in the past from cheap PC video cards.

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They've tried to cover the chip numbers on the board with a marker pen but it some kind of PIC24F thats generating a feed of colour, font glyph data and attribute bits into the CPLD which then generates the RGB pixel signals. I suspect it uses SPI to clock in the data and that sometimes there is a bit of jitter causing the clock pulses to be uneven.

Could be, although I haven't really looked at it to see what they used. I may try to clean the chip packages to expose the markings. If successful, I'll post some good close-up pics.

The display is certainly more than adequate for a text-based SBC console, and the hardware interface is straightforward—a minimal RxD, TxD and GND hookup would work, although CTS/RTS handshaking would probably be required to run the thing at its maximum baud rate. The ANSI command set is adequate for console use, but doesn't have a clear-to-screen-end command. CTSE can be synthesized with a series of clear-to-end-of-line commands, however, which the command set does support. Doing so would require that the driver code maintain cursor coordinate shadow registers, which a pair of ZP locations could handle.

Documentation on this device is kind of sparse, but that's not much of an impediment if you are familiar with the ANSI/ECMA terminal command escape sequences. My only real beef is with the physical layout, with the mini-DIN keyboard receptacle jammed right against the DB-15 VGA output receptacle.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:43 pm 
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Dr Jefyll wrote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
the character generator ROM [...] will take up space (4KB) in the memory map.
To be clear, we're just talking about 4KB of data that could be stored in an (E)EPROM. That may be trivial, or not, depending whether your existing ROM has extra capacity available.

The C-128 did it by overlaying the character ROM on top of the I/O block ($D000-$DFFF), which would be practical if a CPLD or similar were in charge of memory management.

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Another option, FWIW: if the system has mass storage -- SD, perhaps -- then on bootup the character generator data could be copied straight from there to the 8563 or 8568, bypassing the SBC's memory entirely.

Wouldn't that be a bit of chicken-and-egg scenario during hardware development and debugging? You have to have the mass storage device to get the fonts loaded in order to generate a display, but if the mass storage isn't working right, it would be useful to have a resident M/L monitor to debug. But, you can't use the monitor because you don't have a display...

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Quote:
I got one of those devices and ended up setting it aside
Here's where our preferences differ. I'd rather have the bit-mapped display than the hardware-generated cursor. :D

Ideally, we'd have both. The lack of a cursor in the 4D uVGA-III display module is no trivial matter. Anyone who has fooled around with the Commodore VIC-20 or C-64 knows that generating a cursor in software can eat up a fair amount of code. The 4D uVGA-III module doesn't allow direct access to video RAM, so the usual XOR technique on the character under the illusory cursor isn't practical.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:48 pm 
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I wrote:
FWIW: if the system has mass storage -- SD, perhaps -- then on bootup the character generator data could be copied straight from there to the 8563 or 8568
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Wouldn't that be a bit of chicken-and-egg scenario during hardware development and debugging?
A bit, yes -- absolutely! :D But the problem is far from insoluble. During "stage 1" debugging, the character generator data could reside in EPROM. Then for stage 2 (after mass storage is debugged) that 4K of EPROM space becomes available for application code/data. Other solutions also exist.

-- Jeff

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:40 pm 
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Dr Jefyll wrote:
I wrote:
FWIW: if the system has mass storage -- SD, perhaps -- then on bootup the character generator data could be copied straight from there to the 8563 or 8568
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Wouldn't that be a bit of chicken-and-egg scenario during hardware development and debugging?
A bit, yes -- absolutely! :D But the problem is far from insoluble. During "stage 1" debugging, the character generator data could reside in EPROM. Then for stage 2 (after mass storage is debugged) that 4K of EPROM space becomes available for application code/data. Other solutions also exist.

Of course, the character ROM could normally be invisible and mapped in over something else when it's needed. However, it's all academic. :) If a VDC without the hardware bugs (especially the poorly implemented method of copying RAM for scrolls, etc.) in the 8563/8568 existed and a lot of hoop-jumping wasn't required to integrate it into an SBC I'd do it. However, with gadgets like the SECONS and 4D VGA adapters around, why knock yourself out.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:08 am 
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Hello,
i'm using MOS8563 in a computer based on 65C816. I tryed to rising dot clock to 25.175MHz to see if VDC can be used to drive a VGA monitor, but the result is negative. At maximum VDC can work stable at 20MHz, but with this dot clock is not possible to obtain the HSYNC = 32Khz in a 80x25 Matrix.
With dot clock = 16MHz can be drived an usual PAL/NTSC monitor (i drive a PAL TV by SCART), and with a dot clock = 20MHz i can drive one very old VGA monitor that can lock HSYNC = 24KHz and VDC work fine (i have some very old VGA monitor, but i found only ONE capable to work at HSYNC = 24KHz).
I have saved from a PC the character ROM and loaded into the memory of the VDC (VGA font 8x16 and VGA font 8x8) and the result was very good.
I have tested the VDC with a uP clock = 4MHz.
For software i starting with the one found in C128 (i found in internet a disassembled version).
Some days ago i have made a new board that use the R6545EAP (the standard R6545A, but capable to work with a character clock = 3.5MHz), and derived the timing from the standard VGA (text mode) dot clock (25.175MHz) and this board can drive a VGA monitor (also a new LCD monitor).
If anyone have interest in this, can tell me the schematics for the VDC solution and/or for the R6545EAP solution (also work with an HD6445).
In this last board the video RAM is shared with uP (as opposite with the VDC), but the access from uP is synced (by RDY line) so that the CRTC and uP have unimpeded access to video RAM.

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