6502.org Forum  Projects  Code  Documents  Tools  Forum
It is currently Mon Sep 23, 2024 4:22 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 5:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:29 am
Posts: 44
Hi,

I put together a tutorial for making sense of the mess of colored lines that is Visual 6502 (and other sims based on the same framework) for the nesdev community at http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Visu ... t_tutorial . It focuses on Visual 2A03 (the NES CPU, which also contains sound circuitry among other things) and Visual 2C02 (the NES PPU), but many sections should be universal.

Thought people here might find it useful too. :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 7:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:28 pm
Posts: 10938
Location: England
Good stuff! Thanks for that.

One point: you speak of gates being open and closed. I think that might be unclear. (It's unfortunate that "gate" could mean logic gate, transistor or the gate terminal of a transistor, in different contexts.) It might be clearer to speak of transistors being on, or channels conducting. If you're speaking in terms of switches - and I usually think of transistors as switches - then "open" means the switch is off and there's no connection, while "closed" means the switch is on and there is a connection.

Hopefully you can find a way to re-word things so it's more clear!

I can link to your page from the visual6502 wiki - especially if you have some idea where that link should go.

Cheers
Ed


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:29 am
Posts: 44
Thanks!

BigEd wrote:
One point: you speak of gates being open and closed. I think that might be unclear. (It's unfortunate that "gate" could mean logic gate, transistor or the gate terminal of a transistor, in different contexts.) It might be clearer to speak of transistors being on, or channels conducting. If you're speaking in terms of switches - and I usually think of transistors as switches - then "open" means the switch is off and there's no connection, while "closed" means the switch is on and there is a connection.


I take it "on"/"closed" and "off"/"open" are the right terms to use in the context of gate terminals and switches then (might've taken the door analogy a bit far in my head :P). Looks like I could just do a simple substitution, and maybe get the word "switch" in there too since it'd be nice to cover.

BigEd wrote:
I can link to your page from the visual6502 wiki - especially if you have some idea where that link should go.


I'm not familiar with the layout of the wiki, but some introductory or user's guide part might make sense I guess.


Last edited by ulfalizer on Fri May 31, 2013 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:39 am
Posts: 201
"Power sources" are depletion-mode transistors, which is slighty differ from usual enchancement-mode transistors with additional insulation under its gate.

http://citstudents.in/download/Notes/EC ... -NOTES.pdf

nMOS NAND gate:
Image

PPU OAM and palette memory are both technically SRAM, as its formed by pair-couple of inverters.

DRAM is made of isolated gate latches.
Image

Quote:
PLAs are combinational circuits implementing Boolean functions, often used for decoding and "lookup table" functionality, constructed with an AND gate plane that feeds into an OR gate plane.
Both planes are multiple NOR-gates.

Quote:
One point: you speak of gates being open and closed. I think that might be unclear.
Not for me :) I imagine transistor as water tap. When tap is open - water (electricity) is flowing :)

_________________
6502 addict


Last edited by org on Fri May 31, 2013 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:29 am
Posts: 44
Updated the page to switch the "open"/"closed" terminology. Proofreading would be welcome. :)

Edit: Reverted for now; see below.


Last edited by ulfalizer on Fri May 31, 2013 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:29 am
Posts: 44
org wrote:
PPU OAM and palette memory are both technically SRAM, as its formed by pair-couple of inverters.


Are you sure about that? The cells in the OAM are not directly connected to power, rely on capacitance, and require refreshing not to fade (which the article covers).

org wrote:
ulfalizer wrote:
PLAs are combinational circuits implementing Boolean functions, often used for decoding and "lookup table" functionality, constructed with an AND gate plane that feeds into an OR gate plane.
Both planes are multiple NOR-gates.


The right-most plane can be viewed as an AND plane built with NOR gates though. If it's wrong, than what would an "actual" AND plane look like?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:29 am
Posts: 44
Re. "open" and "closed" for the transistor gates, I'd like to go for the most "standard" usage if there is one. Is this a matter of preference with a relatively even split, or is one much more common? :?

Edit: I reverted the switch for now just to not confuse the heck out of people working through the article. Might switch back later after some more confirmation.


Last edited by ulfalizer on Fri May 31, 2013 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:39 am
Posts: 201
Quote:
If it's wrong, than what would an "actual" AND plane look like?

As far as I seen, all PLA's are made of multiple NOR gates. The difference is only in horizontal/vertical layout.

In case of your example :
Image
I can see two PLA's: one with horizontal outputs which feeds another one, with vertical outputs.

Quote:
Are you sure about that? The cells in the OAM are not directly connected to power, rely on capacitance, and require refreshing not to fade (which the article covers).

DRAM require additional refresh controller.

_________________
6502 addict


Last edited by org on Fri May 31, 2013 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:29 am
Posts: 44
org wrote:
Quote:
If it's wrong, than what would an "actual" AND plane look like?

As far as I seen, all PLA's are made of multiple NOR gates. The difference is only in horizontal/vertical layout.

In case of your example :
Image
I can see two PLA's: one with horizontal outputs which feeds another one, with vertical outputs.


I'm going by the terminology in e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmable_Logic_Array . I think viewing the "AND" part as just that makes the most intuitive sense in this case too.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:29 am
Posts: 44
org wrote:
ulfalizer wrote:
Are you sure about that? The cells in the OAM are not directly connected to power, rely on capacitance, and require refreshing not to fade (which the article covers).

DRAM require additional refresh controller.


As the article mentions, there is no automatic refresh logic for the OAM in the PPU. It (usually) gets away without it since sprite evaluation will read the entire OAM for each scanline. (It can cause glitches if rendering is turned off and values are allowed to fade for too long though.)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:29 am
Posts: 44
Re. enhancement and depletion mode, that would be nice to cover at a basic level.

Does the depletion-mode transistor act as a "resistor" by lowering the conductivity of the channel as more current gets through through the "hook", until an equilibrium is reached?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 10:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:39 am
Posts: 201
Quote:
As the article mentions, there is no automatic refresh logic for the OAM in the PPU.
It seems to be a hybrid between SRAM (pair of inverters) and DRAM (no power supply to cells) :)

Quote:
In Visual 2C02, the precharge logic has been disconnected
This made to prevent erasing of OAM and palette RAM.

_________________
6502 addict


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 11:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:28 pm
Posts: 10938
Location: England
How about using "on" and "off" instead of open and closed?

As for pull-ups: it's possible to design using ordinary (enhancement-mode) transistors - the 6800 did this - but more efficient to use depletion mode. It's a transistor like any other, but with a lower threshold voltage and therefore more on-ness than an ordinary one. In fact, it's never off. It's just about on when the input is low, and strongly on when the input is high. From a distance, it certainly is very like a resistor (and a resistor would also work) - the details of the waveform will be different, as the output goes high or low according to the pulldowns.

Cheers
Ed


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 1:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 5:29 am
Posts: 44
BigEd wrote:
How about using "on" and "off" instead of open and closed?


Sounds reasonable. I thought "the gate is on" sounded weird at first, but maybe not.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 3:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:39 am
Posts: 201
Transistor (as switch) can be "on" or "off". Gate (as door) can be "open" or "closed".

BigEd, nice explanation! :)

_________________
6502 addict


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 18 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: