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ptorric
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:07 pm 
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http://www.6502.buss.hk

i think it's well designed also for crosslinked topics.

ps:
just in case maya was right, i wish you now a merry christmas coding and assembling our favorite 8bit cpu... :)
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BigDumbDinosaur
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:06 pm 
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ptorric wrote:
http://www.6502.buss.hk

i think it's well designed also for crosslinked topics.

ps:
just in case maya was right, i wish you now a merry christmas coding and assembling our favorite 8bit cpu... :)

It's a pretty decent site. I got a chuckle out of 6502 is not a new technology, instead, it has been developed for more than 20 years. Lessee...the 6502 has been around since 1975, so that makes the technology nearly 38 years old, older than that if you consider that the 6502's design borrowed from the MC6800.

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GARTHWILSON
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:39 am 
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I don't think he has had any updates since Jimmy Carter was president. A few things were not just outdated, but totally incorrect, like where he said the Radio Shack TRS-80 was made by Commodore and had a 6502 in it. I tried the "Contact" link to try to help him out, but it did not give any way to atcually contact him. Anyone have any contact info for him?

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The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?
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BigDumbDinosaur
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:37 am 
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GARTHWILSON wrote:
I don't think he has had any updates since Jimmy Carter was president.

You mean the World Wide Web was around back then? I must've missed that! :lol:

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A few things were not just outdated, but totally incorrect, like where he said the Radio Shack TRS-80 was made by Commodore and had a 6502 in it.

Yeah, I saw that. I'd bet Radio Shack had wished that the Trash-80 was actually a C-64.

BTW, shouldn't this topic be under general discussions instead of programming?

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BigEd
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:55 am 
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It mentions visual6502, which is only a couple of years old.
The contact link led me to email address: cloudgen at buss.hk
I think TRS-80 was a brand applied to several diverse machines. Not sure about a 6502 one.
Let's ease up on the crushing criticism and see if we can't welcome a new enthusiast to our family.
Cheers
Ed

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS-80#Other_systems 6809, 6803, 8085 but no 6502
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ptorric
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:53 am 
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BigEd wrote:
Let's ease up on the crushing criticism and see if we can't welcome a new enthusiast to our family.


...and maybe some light circumstance pleasantries.

of course this forum is full of smart and well trained guys, but i think that after more than 30 years later it's nice to find out someone that "see the light" and build up a new site.

some mistakes are normal and not so relevant compared to the initiative, i.m.o.

again merry christmas to all you guys!
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BigDumbDinosaur
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:22 pm 
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BigEd wrote:
Let's ease up on the crushing criticism and see if we can't welcome a new enthusiast to our family.

Crushing criticism? I don't see any of that, just a few factual observations.

As for the TRS-80, when that model is mentioned to anyone who has been monkeying with computers for a long time, the Radio Shack machine immediately comes to mind.

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BigDumbDinosaur
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:52 am 
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I spent some time looking more closely at www.6502.buss.hk and in light of the comments made by Ed and ptorric, as well as what I saw, I think a secondary comment is warranted.

That site is, in my opinion, doing a bit of a disservice to the 6502. Yes, it's always encouraging to see interest in the 6502, and yes, we want everyone to know that the 6502 (65C02, actually) is a good base on which to build a homebrew system. Unfortunately, this site has more than a few inaccuracies, such as the author asserting that the MPU is only available in 5 volt, 1 and 2 MHz versions (news that would greatly surprise Bill Mensch, as well as just about everyone at 6502.org). And then there's this statement, which appears to have been lifted verbatim from another site that was also more errors than useful information:

    The 6502 instruction-set also included a set of binary coded decimal (BCD) instructions under the "Decimal Mode" of the 6502 processor.

Or, how about:

    In addition, the 6502 processor introduces the idea of "zero page" which improves the speed of communication.

That would be news to those who designed the MC6800. And, of course, zero page (direct page with the 6800 and the 65C816) addressing has nothing to do with communication.

Further reading makes it clear that the author apparently doesn't know anything about the 65C02 and its enhanced features. I could present a few other examples, but think I've made my point.

There are already many sites devoted to the 6502, so for us to get excited about this one doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The author really needs to do more research so when he presents his information it is not inadvertently misinformation. I don't think any of us are being crushingly critical to highlight this.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm not and never have been into ego massaging. If it's wrong, it's wrong, and just how fair is it to allow the wrongness to continue and cause others grief? Highlighting errors and offering corrective information has to be better than having some poor soul become frustrated because his 6502 gadget won't work due to misinformation, and then giving up.

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GARTHWILSON
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:28 am 
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This kind of thing seems to happen sometimes when someone's enthusiasm for their new interest coincides with their new ability to make a website. I've seen it in other fields too, with a very nice website with a lot of misinformation. Although we want to be welcoming and be as helpful as possible in answering questions, the freshmen are not offered the podium. I would be pleased to have him join us on the forum.

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http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?
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Klaus2m5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:49 am 
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A fragment of his 6502 Blog explains a bit of his motivation. He may not be up to date and totally correct, but he definitely is a 6502 enthusiast. His native language seems to be chinese, so his english sometimes misses the right words. But how would we do in putting up a website in chinese?

http://6502assembly.wordpress.com/ (scroll to bottom)

He did never state, that he talks about anything else than the 6502! So why do you expect him to mention 65c02 or even its 16 bit successors? If one would google for 65c02, this website does not show as a match.

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BigEd
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:28 am 
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The worst responses to new offsite material read to me like this:
"Hi neighbour, I see you're new here. My, your children are stupid and your car is old. My house is much bigger than yours. Just being helpful, not meaning any crushing criticism."

It's not necessarily a question of content, but of tone. It's nothing to do with ego-massaging. Both BDD and Garth are of course highly expert in many obscure technical and historical details. Be aware that you can present that expertise in either a negative or a positive way.

The presentation of that site is far better, to my eye, than either BDD's or Garth's. While the content of the one site could bear to have a few small corrections, much could be learnt from it.

Cheers
Ed
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BigDumbDinosaur
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:08 am 
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BigEd wrote:
The worst responses to new offsite material read to me like this:
"Hi neighbour, I see you're new here. My, your children are stupid and your car is old. My house is much bigger than yours. Just being helpful, not meaning any crushing criticism."

It's not necessarily a question of content, but of tone. It's nothing to do with ego-massaging. Both BDD and Garth are of course highly expert in many obscure technical and historical details. Be aware that you can present that expertise in either a negative or a positive way.

Hmm...where to start?

I don't see anything in Garth's or my remarks that in any way, shape or form, questions the website author's intelligence or disses the appearance of the site (I don't pay attention to appearance unless it annoys me). My remarks had to do with factual inaccuracies and (unwarranted, in my opinion) excitement about a site that by your own admission, is incomplete and could use some attention in that regard. As for tone, which tends to be difficult to properly convey via print matter, that's a very subjective thing complicated by language differences, even amongst us Anglophones (vidi shag :D). Your perception of tone is clearly different than mine or Garth's, or other members here. As I stated above:

    ...it's always encouraging to see interest in the 6502, and yes, we want everyone to know that the 6502 (65C02, actually) is a good base on which to build a homebrew system.

Where's the denigration to which you allude?

GARTHWILSON wrote:
This kind of thing seems to happen sometimes when someone's enthusiasm for their new interest coincides with their new ability to make a website. I've seen it in other fields too, with a very nice website with a lot of misinformation. Although we want to be welcoming and be as helpful as possible in answering questions, the freshmen are not offered the podium. I would be pleased to have him join us on the forum.

I concur 100 percent. When I started out with computer technology nearly 43 years ago, I heeded a dictum learned while in the military, which bluntly stated, was "Keep your <expletive> mouth shut and your <expletive> ears open." In more refined terms, I did a lot of studying, question-asking and general learning before I felt I was reasonably qualified to expound on a highly technical subject (my first published article related to computer technology didn't come until 1988 or thereabouts).

As Garth says, he's welcome to join us so we all can swap knowledge, stories, etc.

BigEd wrote:
The presentation of that site is far better, to my eye, than either BDD's or Garth's.

I won't quibble with you in that regard, at least with my own site. I concentrate little time on website design—that is not any area of interest for me. This "minimalist" thinking also applies to my business' website, which is nearly as attractive as my POC site (ugly, in other words), but useful to the types of clients that would hire my services. Although I can't speak for Garth, I suspect his website's layout also reflects where his priorities lie.

Succinctly stated, the medium is not the message.

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While the content of the one site could bear to have a few small corrections, much could be learnt from it.

Thirty years ago, maybe, but not now.

Klaus2m5 wrote:
A fragment of his 6502 Blog explains a bit of his motivation. He may not be up to date and totally correct, but he definitely is a 6502 enthusiast. His native language seems to be chinese, so his english sometimes misses the right words. But how would we do in putting up a website in chinese?

Again, I made no comment on the appearance of his site or the quality of his English (which is better than average for a non-native speaker). As for putting up a site in Chinese (which is a technically, as well as linguistically, complicated task), I wouldn't attempt it, as I know the limits of my knowledge and skills.

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He did never state, that he talks about anything else than the 6502! So why do you expect him to mention 65c02 or even its 16 bit successors? If one would google for 65c02, this website does not show as a match.

I wasn't "expecting" a reference to the 65C02. What I said was it appears he doesn't know about it, even though the 'C02 has existed for some 30 years, and was used in the Apple ][c and ][e line of computers. At this point in time, the 'C02 is of much greater importance than the NMOS parts. So pardon me for thinking that a website that pontificates about the 6502 would also mention the far-more-widely-used 'C02.

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Klaus2m5
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:27 am 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
And then there's this statement, which appears to have been lifted verbatim from another site that was also more errors than useful information:

    The 6502 instruction-set also included a set of binary coded decimal (BCD) instructions under the "Decimal Mode" of the 6502 processor.

Or, how about:

    In addition, the 6502 processor introduces the idea of "zero page" which improves the speed of communication.

That would be news to those who designed the MC6800. And, of course, zero page (direct page with the 6800 and the 65C816) addressing has nothing to do with communication.
I see these as part of a language problem. ADC and SBC behave different under decimal mode. So one could actually see them as a different set of instructions - switched to by decimal mode. Zeropage instructions indeed improve the speed of communication with memory, they take less cycles to execute and that means more bytes/second to/from RAM. The wording is incorrect, the meanig is right. OK, it wasn't the first CPU to have zeropage instructions.

I have googled the wording in the decimal statement and yes, it shows up on another site... of the same guy.

And by the way, he does know about the 65c02, as he lists it here: http://www.6502.buss.hk/glossary/8-bit-cpu

I don´t understand, why it is so hard to say " I am not interested in ancient 6502 stuff, I have moved on" and leave sites like these to their intended audience. Its a low level introduction to 6502 assembly, nothing more and nothing less. I didn't spot any errors on the site pertaining to this subject, neither did I see any related errors mentioned in this thread.

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