6502.org Forum  Projects  Code  Documents  Tools  Forum
It is currently Sat Nov 23, 2024 7:15 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:09 am
Posts: 8544
Location: Southern California
Quote:
It's like the mini-bar in your hotel room. Yes you did pay for the room but pull something from that fridge and you will pay some more.

That does make sense, because if you use it, it costs them money to replace what you helped yourself to.

The Intel thing is paid for in some combination of two different ways, neither of which I like. All the silicon does get paid for, partly by you, and partly by others.

A.: If you don't pay the extra, then part of the price you did pay is undoubtedly beyond the silicon you are using. The manufacturer can't afford to let the extra silicon be free; but it's of no use to you.

B: If you do pay to upgrade, you are also paying for some of the unused portion in someone else's computer who's not using it because they didn't pay the extra. It sits there unused, under their hood, paid for partly out of your pocket. They paid part, and you paid the rest.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:03 pm
Posts: 1706
I only use AMD parts as well. But you have to pay attention to Intel nonetheless, because if they legitimize this business practice, it will spread like wildfire to other vendors to compete. Remember, this isn't about the silicon. It's about human behavior in the market.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:27 pm
Posts: 3258
Location: NC, USA
I refuse to use AMD. Their past products remind me of NMOS. There's an entertaining video on youtube here ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxSqCdT7xPY ) comparing THE video game (Quake 3) on an Intel based computer and an AMD based one. See for yourselves...

_________________
65Org16:https://github.com/ElEctric-EyE/verilog-6502


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:09 am
Posts: 8544
Location: Southern California
Isn't that like buying a car based on which one will run without water/coolant? An external temperature sensor and power-down circuit would cost a fraction as much as the processor, and probably reduce the price of the processor enough to compensate. (I haven't compared the prices though.)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:03 pm
Posts: 1706
Bingo Garth -- you hit the nail on the head far better than I ever could have.

Completely incidentally, but for unrelated reasons, we see similar behaviors in the Internet and telco markets, which after some decades is now giving us the problem of net neutrality -- the flat-rate pricing everyone prefers creates a commons which inexorably gets trashed as people try to exploit it en masse. Why? For the same reasons a run on the bank in a fractional-reserve system is disastrous: overselling your reserves.

As a former operator of two ISPs, here's a relevant example, drawn from actual, real-world experience.

Suppose a T1 costs $500/month to maintain. A T1 carries 24 64Kbps channels (of which 56Kbps is usable for customer traffic), so if you want to offer 56Kbps dial-up service, you can only support 24 concurrent callers. So, as a business owner, do you charge people who dial in a value in proportion to their monthly usage? Or, do you offer a flat rate of $21/month to cover T1 expenses used?

It turns out that not everyone will be online all the time, and so you get some people hoarding their connections (e.g., gamers or Youtube surfers) while others use it sporadically (e.g., weather updates, what's on at the movies, etc.). If both are charged the same rate, those which utilize the service the least effectively subsidize those who use the service the most.

Problem: your provider is charging you $500 whether the T1 is actually used or not, so to ensure full utilization of your resources, you sell your product to more customers (who, conveniently, also pay $21/month). Your sporadic users now must compete for bandwidth against more users, leading (eventually) to busy-signals or other related phenomena. That way, you, as a service provider, gets your money's worth; in fact, you're earning a profit hand over fist, because you're actually making more than your expenses paid out every month, by quite a bit I might add. This is apparently a sound business plan.

Except it's not. It is here that the problem arises: natural chaotic laws state that, at some point, large numbers of your users will try to access the network at once. And when that happens, a fraction (all but 24 of them) will get busy signals. Question: can your business absorb the technical support overhead (and, perhaps, the refunds due the customers) and still remain profitable using the flat-rate system? Answer: Yes, as long as you keep your over-sold ratio to about 10:1 (e.g., a 24-channel T1 can reliably support about 240 sporadic users before you feel the crunch; at Armored Internet, we had about 350 customers on a single T1, and tech support calls and refunds had become quite noticable).

You get the same effect with always-on technologies like wireless providers. You pay a flat rate to your cell provider. Yet, the cell carriers have only so much bandwidth to offer in the RF spectrum. They pay a fixed rate to the FCC for license fees, so they over-sell their spectrum because they know that people won't all be online at the same time. Except, it turns out, that people are online with ever-increasing frequency, particularly as more and more services go the way of the Internet. For reasons I'm not aware, the carriers aren't able to acquire more bandwidth (perhaps to preserve their existing infrastructure investments), and so they start charging extra for those who prefer faster service. More precisely, they charge extra for those who desire priority packet routing; those who don't pay the premium will have statistically higher packet loss rates.

But this only affects wireless technologies, right? Nope. This has been a burgeoning issue for wired systems as well. I remember when SBC throttled customer traffic to NNTP behind customers' backs. I remember (and have experienced myself) when Comcast issued TCP RST packets to prevent BitTorrent sessions from consuming larger fractions of a customer's contracted bandwidth. See, the more bandwidth you actually use, the lower the company's profits (since it's predicated on overselling bandwidth used on a sporadic basis, remember?), and so it's in the company's best interests to punish its users, not support them.

You would think this all makes perfect sense, since we're so accustomed to this model of business. We have the benefits of both price discrimination and flat rate pricing! Except, it's not reflective of reality. People should pay for what they actually use/own/etc fairly, and not subsidize others in the process. That's the burgeoning red flag here: you need to ask yourself, "Can the system be used to subsidize others?" If it is, it's a business model that will, at some time in the future, lead to an over-extended commons. The laws of supply, demand, and thermodynamics demand it.

None of this would have happened if people rejected the flat rate payment model, and instead paid a rate concomitant with actual bandwidth use. A sane, sound billing policy would consist of:

* a flat rate the customer agrees to pay to cover business operations. This fee goes towards paying people's wages. As people get hired, this rate goes up. As more customers sign up, this rate goes down. The basic formula here is R=(nP+O)/C, where n is the number of employees, P is their average pay grade, C is the number of customers, and O are the fixed expenses of the business (e.g., rent). It's OK to also add a reasonable fixed profit here too, of course.

* a variable rate based on the length of time a customer utilizes the company's switching fabric. For example, sending a 1500 byte packet on a 56kbps link on that T1 will consume somewhere around 0.2 seconds of time. Out of a 30 day period, this amounts to only $0.0000016. Yeah, it doesn't seem like a lot, but when you consider how long the user actually uses the network, it really does add up to cover that user's share of your expenses. If the user stays connected for the full 30 day period (e.g., as a business might), or uses a solid 30 days worth of traffic (always-on technology like cable or DSL), you've accrued a bill for 1/24th the T1 you're using. Note that as a customer who sends that 1500 byte packet, I will probably end up paying $0.0000032, because of profit. This lets the ISP earn profit with far fewer customers than the flat rate model.

What does this give us? Financial projections will be in line with bandwidth consumption projections, for starters. The heaviest users of the service subsidize infrastructure upgrades. It also lets businesses adequately fund research into providing faster infrastructures, or more advanced core technologies. Observe that spam consists of more than half of the core infrastructure's bandwidth consumption, and yet email still is passed uncompressed!! And speaking of spam, why is it such a problem? Because it's cheap to send massive amounts of data, and relatively expensive to receive it (indeed, the receivers subsidize the senders to a large extent!). If you make the cost of sending e-mail reflect actual resource consumption rates, you'll suddenly find spam rate will drop like a rock, perhaps into insignificance.

Anyway, sorry for the soap-box presentation here. I just find the parallel's between Intel's democratization of warranty pricing (if John's analysis of Intel's behavior proves accurate), Garth's observations, and my own experience from the ISP boom-days to be uncanny. I predict progress in the PC industry will stumble or even falter all-together if this model becomes widespread.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:27 pm
Posts: 3258
Location: NC, USA
GARTHWILSON wrote:
Isn't that like buying a car based on which one will run without water/coolant? An external temperature sensor and power-down circuit would cost a fraction as much as the processor, and probably reduce the price of the processor enough to compensate. (I haven't compared the prices though.)


My only point was the Intel CPU's as of that youtube video post are inherently current limiting, whereas the AMD cpu's are more like devices that exhibited thermal runaway in days of old.

And what about the issue of trying to tie an IP to a CPUID? Like how they trace money from city to city, country to country...

_________________
65Org16:https://github.com/ElEctric-EyE/verilog-6502


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:27 pm
Posts: 3258
Location: NC, USA
I know, I'm outgunned, outclassed in this discussion...

I've stuck my nose where it didn't belong. But I'm going to make two final comments and I'm done in here for awhile.

Technology ALWAYS comes down in price, and Intel has the tech over AMD and always has... That's not to say it always will!

My gaming days are over... But games do PUSH systems to their limit. Linux does not. Games like Crysis will stress your system to the max, and I'm not talking about a mass produced system either. That would be a waste of time!

Hopefully, I still am in good company here. You guys seem to more of the way of programming than hardware though...

_________________
65Org16:https://github.com/ElEctric-EyE/verilog-6502


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:03 pm
Posts: 1706
ElEctric_EyE wrote:
I know, I'm outgunned, outclassed in this discussion...


You and I both.

Quote:
I've stuck my nose where it didn't belong. But I'm going to make two final comments and I'm done in here for awhile.


This thread is deliberately off-topic, so I don't think your nose is in any danger. ;)

Quote:
Technology ALWAYS comes down in price, and Intel has the tech over AMD and always has...


No, I beg to differ strongly with this. AMD has different tech than Intel, and they still rock the house for integer performance (which benefits most business apps). Intel's strong point seems to be in the floating point arena. Both are excellent CPUs for their respective money already, though.

Quote:
But games do PUSH systems to their limit. Linux does not.


Apples and oranges.

Games aren't operating systems. By definition, an OS shouldn't push a system to its limits, for the more it does so, the less CPU bandwidth exists for your applications! Interesting benchmarks used to be compared in the early 80s, comparing the same app running under Unix versus VMS, all to test operating system overhead.

I can guarantee you that Ning's back-end infrastructure absolutely will challenge any hardware we put it on.

Quote:
Hopefully, I still am in good company here.


Hope, it is said, is the most negative word in the metaphysical dictionary. It's best not to hope. It's best to just be.

And you are.

Quote:
You guys seem to more of the way of programming than hardware though...


Not me; I love hardware every bit as much as I love software. In a way, I prefer hardware over software. It's more deterministic, and it argues even less than software does.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:27 pm
Posts: 3258
Location: NC, USA
I was having a discussion @work today with a fellow enthusiast...

He is a linux guy, I am much more hardware oriented, but what he brought up during our discussion, reminded me of this thread... (I've also come across a similar topic when trying to overclock my video card when watercooled. It was regarding a certain manufacturer's video card, on another forum). There was no intention of "speed binning" parts. Since 100% reliability was attainable on every IC, they artificially created speed "bin's" by blowing certain fuses internally...

Anyway, I was asked if I heard about Intel's intention of making a "computer" where you had to pay for enabling keys which would open other parts of the PC to make it perform better...

Really?...


Heh :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

_________________
65Org16:https://github.com/ElEctric-EyE/verilog-6502


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:03 pm
Posts: 1706
Remember folks, you heard it here first! :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:01 am
Posts: 142
Thing is, its not cost effective to make a many different models of the same core. So computer chip vendors have been making the same core with different features changed at the end of manufacturing, not at the die/wafer level but at the final assembly.

ATI's graphic cards were able to compete for years money verses performance wise compared to nVidia chipsets because they used the same dies in many different products. The R300 die was used in the 9500, 9600, 9700 and 9800's. With different features locked out. Depending on the board itself, some models were able to be "upgraded" to a better specification using a firmware upgrade. So my ATI 9500 Pro I put in my first computer, was flashed and I got a 9700 Pro without spending the additional money on it.

Intel is just trying to consolidate their manufacturing, as they have way too many lines out right now. And they need to keep providing cheaper and cheaper CPU's to end users that buy Dell machines and other low cost desktops. Since the costs of the production of low cost versions that are dedicated are getting higher, it makes sense for Intel to develop a method where it can "downgrade" a production CPU and then if the customer wants to, "upgrade" their CPU on the fly with a software update. Since after all its the same die so why not try to recover some of the extra costs that you inherently lose when selling to big box computer assemblers that are interested in the lowest bottom line as possible?

Dimitri


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:05 am
Posts: 9
And now it's turning out that >90% of Radeon 6950's can be BIOS flashed to a 6970, unlocking the disabled shaders. In a poll only 2 cards had artifacts and none crashed...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:56 am
Posts: 411
Location: Minnesota
kc5tja wrote:
Completely incidentally, but for unrelated reasons, we see similar behaviors in the Internet and telco markets, which after some decades is now giving us the problem of net neutrality -- the flat-rate pricing everyone prefers creates a commons which inexorably gets trashed as people try to exploit it en masse. Why? For the same reasons a run on the bank in a fractional-reserve system is disastrous: overselling your reserves.


OTOH, net neutrality allows low-cost innovation ala Google and Facebook, which arguably would never have happened if their founders had to pay the full cost of the bandwidth they used.

Love the reference to fractional-reserve banking, a subject far too little known. I'd also extend the idea of an over-sold commons to freeways. Since I might benefit by switching lanes, and I certainly won't be worse off than I am now, there's no reason not to. Thus all lanes wind up traveling at the same (slow) speed when enough drivers gum up the works by forcing other drivers to adjust their speeds downwards to avoid collisions.

Tollways, or differential lane pricing, is more and more often cited around where I live as a way to solve congestion. However there seems something wrong about requiring me to pay for a whole freeway via taxes and then not let me use all of it unless I pay even more. If the roadway was entirely user-paid I might not object.

Quote:
None of this would have happened if people rejected the flat rate payment model, and instead paid a rate concomitant with actual bandwidth use. A sane, sound billing policy would consist of:

* a flat rate the customer agrees to pay to cover business operations. This fee goes towards paying people's wages. As people get hired, this rate goes up. As more customers sign up, this rate goes down. The basic formula here is R=(nP+O)/C, where n is the number of employees, P is their average pay grade, C is the number of customers, and O are the fixed expenses of the business (e.g., rent). It's OK to also add a reasonable fixed profit here too, of course.

* a variable rate based on the length of time a customer utilizes the company's switching fabric. For example, sending a 1500 byte packet on a 56kbps link on that T1 will consume somewhere around 0.2 seconds of time. Out of a 30 day period, this amounts to only $0.0000016. Yeah, it doesn't seem like a lot, but when you consider how long the user actually uses the network, it really does add up to cover that user's share of your expenses. If the user stays connected for the full 30 day period (e.g., as a business might), or uses a solid 30 days worth of traffic (always-on technology like cable or DSL), you've accrued a bill for 1/24th the T1 you're using. Note that as a customer who sends that 1500 byte packet, I will probably end up paying $0.0000032, because of profit. This lets the ISP earn profit with far fewer customers than the flat rate model.


Actually this is the model used by local state-regulated natural gas company (or it used to be local - now the headquarters is in Texas). My bill has "flat" charges based on infrastructure and allowed profit margin and a "variable" part based on current gas prices and my use volume. A difference is that as sanctioned monopoly everyone is required to be a customer (or do without), and the permitted profit margin still seems relatively high.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:46 pm
Posts: 8507
Location: Midwestern USA
kc5tja wrote:
The basic formula here is R=(nP+O)/C, where n is the number of employees, P is their average pay grade, C is the number of customers, and O are the fixed expenses of the business (e.g., rent).

Except O isn't really fixed. As more employees are added to the staff, the fixed expenses are going to increase because more space, furniture and equipment will be needed for these workers, they will as a group consume more utilities, the probability of getting a bad apple into the barrel and having to fire him/her (which process can be costly in some cases) will increase, etc. So, at best, O is proportional to P and more often than not, is escalates faster than P.

Quote:
It's OK to also add a reasonable fixed profit here too, of course.

Okay? :) I daresay most businessmen/women would not start up a company if they didn't expect to make a profit. Also, who's definition of "reasonable" applies and why would (or should) profit be fixed?

For most companies, especially those that produce tangible products (as my company does), profits must be as high as practical for the industry in which they are doing business as a hedge against inflation and cyclical business downturns, such as the one that started late in 2001. Otherwise, each time the market goes sour or the cost of raw materials, purchased goods and third party services goes up, the company will be forced to "adjust" the payroll (i.e., dismiss employees) to maintain profitability. On the other hand, by running with the highest level of profitability possible, the company can reinvest in itself, as well as salt away some money to tide it over when business is slow.

_________________
x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:01 am
Posts: 142
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
On the other hand, by running with the highest level of profitability possible, the company can reinvest in itself, as well as salt away some money to tide it over when business is slow.


It is funny, people expect to have a rainy day fund. And as such work extra hours over time etc to add to it. So when they have a financial problem they have something to turn to.

But a company to the same, makes a big nasty capitalistic place run by tyrant according to a whole segment of the population. :roll:

Dimitri


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: