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 Post subject: Tape modems
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 9:28 pm 
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I'm starting this new subject because part of the EPROM thread at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=79 evolved to modems and doesn't have anything to do with EPROMs.  Here I'm responding to kc5tja's post about various modem standards.

-----------------------------

Thanks for some good information Sam.

Part of my point with tape is that the flutter (similar to jitter, and depends mostly on the machine) and dropouts (which depends partly on the machine's tape handling but mostly on the tape itself) impose limitations you don't get with telephone lines or even radio.  The original intended use for the modem I designed did not require speed, but rather dependability with a $6 computer-controllable tape transport with solenoids but no buttons, and a non-mechanical tape counter.  There was voice on one track and digital data on another.  We usually only needed to play a few bytes of data at a time.  The data told the computer when to play the next portion of voice, where we were on the tape, and where to find various recorded portions.  Our small company couldn't be locked into a here-today-gone-tomorrow modem chip in the fast-developing modem market, but we also sold small parts so those were virtually free for us.  This is why we made the modem the way we did in the mid 80's.  As it was, management changed the plan before the product was finished, so this part of it never made it to market.

I worked as a repair tech on semi-professional-quality tape recorders at TEAC a few years earlier.  While all the frequency response specifications went up to the 12kHz to 24kHz range, the open-reel machines were measured at 0VU and the cassettes were measured at -40VU.  The cassettes' upper frequency response limits were only about 3kHz when measured at 0VU!  The exception was the Portastudios, which used an exceptionally low 60kHz bias frequency and ran the tape twice as fast.  Watching the oscilloscope play back a steady tone of a few kHz recorded on most cassettes was pathetic  It definitely was not a solid, steady tone with a motionless display on the 'scope!  A dropout may only last a couple of ms, but could be severe at a few kHz.  And if you put a square wave in (at lower frequencies), someone just walking up to the workbench would never guess from the output waveform that you actually started with a square wave.  The open-reel machines did much better.

If you can think of simple inexpensive ways to get around these cassette problems and get some faster data rates without losing reliability, I'd like to hear them.  Sometimes someone comes up with a really slick idea that's amazingly simple and yet the kind of thing that would not have occurred to any else.  I have no doubt that it is indeed possible to get high data rates through a cassette reliably—but does it require a level of complication that defeats the purpose?

The phone modem constellations of amplitude and phase modulation that allow 56kbps on a phone connection whose frequency response is limited to a few kHz are not useful without a solid, clean transmission medium with good S/N ratio, no significant jitter (since it really fouls up the phase), etc..

Amateur radio also has a different set of weaknesses from those of tape, although probably more forgiving overall, as long as the signal stays sufficiently above the noise and someone else doesn't suddenly transmit on your frequency.

I suppose one thing that intrigues me about modems for cassette is that the cassette standard has been around for 40 years and may still be around for another 40 [Edit: Nope, it was definitely gone 5-10 years after I wrote that], and nearly any cheap commercially available cassette recorder should be usable to record and play back your data regardless of your chosen protocols.

Garth

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 Post subject: Tapes and Us
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 11:36 pm 
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Hi Garth,

Good post!

Anyway. If you haven't already...
Read-up on bar-coding practices.
(non-3D kind). I worked with
barcodes for a while and the
methods for storing bit data are
quite different. However, if you
think about bar-codes and tape
storage have similar design contrains. You might be able to
adapt a barcode method to your
tape environment. Don't forget
SDLC for tape too.

Cheers,

Paul


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 2:45 am 
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Good idea.  I hadn't thought about it, but you're right.  In fact, the tape speed would be a lot less critical than what I did which was made to connect the modem to a UART and use an RS-232-type protocol with start bit, stop bit(s), and optional parity.  I think I have minimal information here on various bar code encoding methods (3 of 9, etc.).  Any education or discussion you decide to give us on the subject I'm sure would be appreciated by others too in addition to myself.

Garth

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 Post subject: Re: Tape modems
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 3:20 am 
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GARTHWILSON wrote:
If you can think of simple inexpensive ways to get around these cassette problems and get some faster data rates without losing reliability, I'd like to hear them.


Steve Wozniak(sp?), IIRC, created a cassette interface that got all the way up to 3000bps. It didn't use audio tones, but rather, nonsinusoidal waves. What was basically recorded on the tape was a raw NRZI signal. Due to the AC coupling to the tape, what came back was an AMI (Alternate Mark Inversion) signal. That is, the reader would get a pulse (alternating between positive and negative; hence the modulation name) every time a logic 1 was "received."

Using an encoding system like MFM, you could get pretty high data rates that way.

If I'm not mistaken, data recorded on floppy disks is done the same way: MFM-encoded NRZI out, MFM-encoded AMI back in.

Of course, we can get away with this with cassettes, because we don't have FCC requirements or splatter to worry about. After all, this technique is essentially UWB, but on recorded media instead of RF.

Quote:
The phone modem constellations of amplitude and phase modulation that allow 56kbps on a phone connection whose frequency response is limited to a few kHz are not useful without a solid, clean transmission medium with good S/N ratio, no signifficant jitter (since it really fowls up the phase), etc..


This is why I advocate using pure phase shift or frequency shift keying. Amplitude shift keying, in any form, is too unreliable on the amateur radio bands. BPSK and QPSK are fine modulation methods, and I would love to employ them on the 2m band to achieve 12000bps and 24000bps throughputs, though the latter does require a better connection path. Imagine, on the 70cm band, BPSK can be used to easily achieve 80 to 160kbps, rivaling many people's DSL connections in real-world performance!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 5:46 am 
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> This is why I advocate using pure phase shift

I think the jitter (flutter) will rule out a fast PSK.  When you align a tape recorder, one of the first things you do is put a on calibration tape and adjust the azimuth of the playback head for maximum output.  You start with the lower frequencies and go to higher ones.  If you get the idea to really fine-tune it by using two different tracks and looking at a Lissajous figure on the oscilloscope, you'll find that at higher frequencies the phases between the two tracks make a disastrous Lissajous pattern that more closely resembles a swarm of bees than a nice diagonal line.  This is particularly true if the tracks are very far apart instead of being next to each other.  The calibration tape itself has a single track that goes across the entire width of the tape, so the phase variations come from the fact that the tape is not perfectly rigid and the tape recorder does not pull it across the head perfectly evenly.  Instead, there are what I might call microscopic turbulences (for lack of a better term) in the way the tape "flows" over the head.

About Woz's method— There's no doubt the guy really had some brains.  I don't know how much he knew about tape though.  Having very little experience with Apple or other cassette data storage, I'm under the impression that there were serious reliability problems, and I expect they were from the things I've mentioned above, plus the fact that if he's recording pulses, you have to take into consideration the atrocious impulse response of a cassette record and playback system.  If an error-detection and -correction method were implemented, so much the better.

However, using audio cassette machines available off the shelf for music or even just voice, I think the intermodulation distortion products should be low enough to actually use quite a handful of different carriers at different frequencies, and if it's a stereo machine, even split the data between the two channels.  After the various components are played back, the original data could be pieced back together for a high resulting data rate.  Each carrier may only handle a few hundred bits per second; but altogether result in 3kbps or possibly far more.  But here's why I asked the rhetorical question about whether such complexity is warranted.  As I see it, the main reason to even think about cassette data storage in this age of $25 FDDs is because you can easily make your own circuit, record the data any way you please, and use almost any cassette recorder you have sitting around.

Now that we've gotten this far, I seem to remember we've discussed some of this before on another part of the forum, and I made the statement that dense serial flash memories offer a comparatively low cost of data archiving, are much, much faster, and more compact.  Deja vu.  Oh well...

Garth

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 Post subject: barcode tape system!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 8:48 am 
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hehe thats funny - the other nite I was thinking of what a system of that nature would be like! why did no one evermake a comercial barcode tape system! hmm after punch cards - too much of an advance into electromagnetic storage I surpose!

anyways good luck and I'm also interested in just hearing more about what ideas (thoughts) you have.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape modems
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:27 am 
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For interest, I see a blog post by a Ben North which very nearly got 24kbps data rates, using QAM to send a 64-point constellation at 4000 symbols/sec, using one stereo track for data and the other for a pilot tone to recover phase.

I also found a remarkable post on slashdot claiming great sophistication in a Mattel home computer's cassette system, although it seems not to deliver an especially fast bit rate.

In both of these cases, significant processing is needed - this is not a solution built from half a dozen 74 series chips!


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 Post subject: Re: Tape modems
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:09 pm 
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I was never a fan of using cassette tape for program storage - the first 6502 system I touched had 5.25" disks (Apple II, 1978) but I do remember trying to use the cassette interface just because it was there - and not having much luck with it.

However the BBC Micro (1981+) had a very usable tape interface which was fast (1200 baud) and also stored files in 256 byte blocks with checksums, so when loading a file from tape you would sometimes get the message: "REWIND TAPE" if it had a problem with a block, so you'd rewind it a bit and it would try again. It seemed to work well, but again when I bought my Beeb, I got a disk drive too...

Tapes on the Beeb were hugely popular though.

There is a good description of it here: http://beebwiki.mdfs.net/Acorn_cassette_format

-Gordon

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 Post subject: Re: Tape modems
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:57 pm 
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(There's a recent and active discussion on the Beeb's tape system here. I used it for a fair while, until I got a disk interface and drive.)


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 Post subject: Re: Tape modems
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:33 pm 
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That was very interesting, and shows, somewhat graphically, what I was saying about cassettes' inconsistent output at high frequencies and the flutter which is not even consistent from track to track, meaning you can't use the right channel as a phase reference for the left channel, because it's like the tape's angle across the head continually changes.  (Note that the left channel is on the edge of the tape, so it is more susceptible to the various problems also.)  It all works much better on open-reel machines, for several reasons.

I still seem to have some kind of romance with tape recorders; but I really don't have much use for one anymore.  I do have an unrelated application for the tiny microcassettes which the digital voice recorders are not suitable for, but microcassettes would be even worse for trying to store digital data, and you still have the problem of belts and rubber wheels rotting.  Part of my original interest in cassettes for data storage was that they were a standard for three decades or more, it seemed that they would be around indefinitely.  Now they're gone.  It seems like the best long-term storage now is serial EEPROM or flash, which will supposedly keep their data for 200 years, and interfacing to it shouldn't be a problem either.

I followed the link to VinylVideo too, which I had never heard of.  Interesting.

At the time of the second Gulf War, 56k dial-up modems had not been out very long and many of us were still on 28k modems.  I watched news of the war on a 28k, in 16 colors and a tiny, very low-res frame.  It was very primitive, but it was nice to be able to get actual video on demand.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape modems
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:24 pm 
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GARTHWILSON wrote:
I still seem to have some kind of romance with tape recorders; but I really don't have much use for one anymore. I do have an unrelated application for the tiny microcassettes which the digital voice recorders are not suitable for, but microcassettes would be even worse for trying to store digital data, and you still have the problem of belts and rubber wheels rotting. Part of my original interest in cassettes for data storage was that they were a standard for three decades or more, it seemed that they would be around indefinitely. Now they're gone. It seems like the best long-term storage now is serial EEPROM or flash, which will supposedly keep their data for 200 years, and interfacing to it shouldn't be a problem either.


There is a very active community still use the cassette interface on some old computers (e.g. Sinclair Spectrum) however it's all been digitised now so playing a tape means plugging your desktop PC/Laptop audio out into the Spectrum tape in and playing the audio that way. I think they have decoded the original tapes then re-created them without the flutter, etc. to make playback into the computer work far better.

Also on modems - modern smartphones can communicate with each other via ultrasonics rather than bluetooth... This is used for the Starling banking app. to enable money transfers to a nearby person without needing to know their bank account details. I've also used a bank card reader that connected to the phone via the 3.5mm jack... So audio data is still with us in one way or another...

-Gordon

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 Post subject: Re: Tape modems
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:38 pm 
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drogon wrote:
Also on modems - modern smartphones can communicate with each other via ultrasonics rather than bluetooth...

I hadn't heard of this, but it makes sense.  I like IR too, as it doesn't have the radiation dangers of Bluetooth and other microwave technologies.  (I don't use a cell phone, partly because I don't want the radiation which slowly does a lot of health damage even though it's nowhere near strong enough to be ionizing.  I can provide plenty of documentation on that if anyone wants it.)

However, there again we're depending on here-today-gone-tomorrow consumer items.  Today a lot of smartphones don't even have headset jacks on them anymore either.  Another reason (out of my several) that I don't use a smartphone is that they never last more than two or three years before major parts begin to malfunction and you have to get a new one.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape modems
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:39 am 
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I use LTO tape to back up my servers. Does that count? :D I also have a 4mm tape drive in my Windows XP machine.

GARTHWILSON wrote:
...I don't use a smartphone is that they never last more than two or three years before major parts begin to malfunction and you have to get a new one.

Planned obsolescence, amigo mío. Planned obsolescence.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape modems
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:17 am 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Planned obsolescence, amigo mío. Planned obsolescence.

...which is partly what this topic was about avoiding, so we can have a storage medium that works for our entire lifetime.  I refuse to be their slaves.  "Consumable" is fine for socks, tires, detergent, and so many other products; but when they intentionally cut the life of something that should last nearly indefinitely, they probably won't get my business.  Serial EEPROM and flash seem to be the best long-term storage now, as we can make our own drivers; otherwise probably SD card.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape modems
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:38 am 
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But the topic here is Tape modems, is it not?


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