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 Post subject: Re: some great ideas!!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 3:02 pm 
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1202 wrote:
but getting ahold of a uv eraser is not looking good at the moment!


Sorry for the earlier digression.

Here's a link to a UV eraser. its US $45 and they accept paypal for payment (which makes international payments easier)

http://www.thebytefactory.com/pr_d-erase.asp

Good luck!

Daryl


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 11:54 am 
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I will keep this in mind!!! sort out the conversion to nz dollars and see what I think..

I am also thinking of battery backed up sram for my project as a cheaper alternative!!

what do you think about battery backed sram instead of eprom for temp experimentation

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 2:05 pm 
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I've never used battery-backed RAM. I was fortunate enough to have found some scrap telecom equipment with loads of 32K EEPROM's in it so I've always used those for my experimentation. I built a simple parallel port programmer for them to get them loaded initially. Now I just load a small installer file into RAM along with my new target program, and let my SBC reprogram itself. You have to be careful to disable any interrupts or other calls to the EEPROM while writing to it, as it will cause the processor to hang-up (more exactly, it will execute opcodes based on the programming cycle reads vs. the intended opcode.)

Using battery backed RAM might be as easy as placing a diode between the board's power supply and the RAM & battery connection. However, I've also read articles stating that certain pins must be held inactive before going to battery power to prevent data loss. Check out your RAM datasheets for any special requirements.

Daryl


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 7:14 pm 
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You can get RAM with the battery and the fail-safe back-up circuitry built in so you don't have to worry about violating timings and losing data if the power goes down at a less-than-ideal time; but watch out though— some of those have non-replaceable batteries. They have a 10-year life expectancy, but I suppose they're made for a market where they don't expect you to keep using any electronic product for that long. EPROMs, although they can self-erase in maybe 15 years, at least can be reprogrammed with the same data, or erased and programmed with different data, to be useful for longer than you'll be around.

I made a battery back-up circuit for a product in the late-80's that de-selected the RAM in time to guarantee data integrity when the power was going down. It used a capacitor to keep the RAM and RTC alive while the batteries were being changed. The parts count was pretty high though (although it used no ICs). I cut out a design idea from one of the electronics industry trade magazines recently that was much simpler, but used a 3.6V NiCad battery. [Edit: See viewtopic.php?f=4&t=573&p=32004#p32004 for the diagram.] The battery was getting charged all the time the circuit was powered up, but the only way to give it the needed occasional discharge to maintain its capacity would be to leave it idle for long enough to lose your data. Not to worry though, that only takes a few weeks or months with NiCad. :lol: IOW, if you work on something else for a few months and then come back to it, your OS or whatever you stored in the RAM will be gone.

Maxim/Dallas probably has an IC that would do the whole job. Again, just make sure it doesn't come with a non-replaceable battery.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 12:41 am 
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Location: ChristChurch New Zealand
8bit I looked at that link you provided me with..

Unfortunatly they can't supply me with the eraser because of my region (nz) they can only supply me with pic processors!

Battery backed ram - I'm thinking of the idea because I'm a student that doesnt want to pay to much for equipment and I'm not worried about perminant storage!

I mean I dont mind having battery backed ram to store a program for a short period of time e.g. a couple of days - I wish to make many program alterations and experiment with software so somthing like e2prom or eprom I'm not fussed about..

ram with back up circuit's built in - this includes the battery??

I might just get some ordinary 32k sram 100ns and try somthing!! hopefully I can get somthing worked out!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:17 pm 
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1202 wrote:
Battery backed ram - I'm thinking of the idea because I'm a student that doesnt want to pay to much for equipment and I'm not worried about perminant storage!

...

ram with back up circuit's built in - this includes the battery??


Go have a look at ..

http://members.lycos.co.uk/leeedavison/misc/lazyprom/

That uses a Dallas Smart Socket which makes any standard CMOS 32k byte RAM into a BBRAM with real time clock. Garth is correct about the batteries but they're not completely non-replaceable, it just took a PCB drill and some patience.

I know it's not exactly what you want to do, I needed a quick to program 'EPROM', but it's similar.

The biggest problem I can see is getting the data into them in the first place. It's easy for me I have a selection of programmers.

In case anyone is wondering, the board shown on the page is a Ferguson SRB1 DMAC receiver and it has two 65C02 cored processors in it.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 3:44 pm 
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Sorry; I didn't quite see this paragraph before.

GARTHWILSON wrote:
I made a couple of modems to do this years ago. The data integrity seemed to be excellent for all the testing I did on it, although I never really put it to actual use. You just plug it into an RS-232 line. Mark was 2400 Hz and space was 1200 (or vice-versa-- I don't remember.) If there was a chance the tape speed could be way off, you can remedy the problem and still use the modem by implementing a really short frame length. I made it for use at 300 bps, but I was surprised that even at twice that rate it could go sometimes a page or two of text without an error. If you omit the line driver and receiver so you'd just connect it directly to a UART, you can get the price down to a buck or two in common parts.


The Bell 202 standard, aka ITU-T/CCITT V.23, specifies the following: mark is at 1200Hz, space is at 2200Hz. Intended data rate: 1200bps.

This is called frequency shift keying, and in this case, AFSK (AUDIO FSK). Unfortunately, Bell's standard isn't as good as it could be, because to get a *clean* 1200bps signal, the frequency spacing should be the same as the symbol rate. In this case, the symbol rate matches the bit rate, so it should be 1200Hz. However, it's not in the Bell 202 standard -- it's only 1000Hz. Thus, errors at 1200bps will occasionally happen due to intermodulation effects.

Ham radio's 1200bps links utilize the old Bell 202 standard. V.23 is different in that it specifies only the European version of the standard, which states 1300Hz for mark, and 2100Hz for space (e.g., they get even worse performance, so they need better signal to noise ratios than we do). Fortunately, even in Europe, AFSK channels on ham radio use the American signalling.

One way to transfer more data faster is to use MFSK -- multiple frequency shift keying. Suppose I want to transmit two bits per symbol instead of one (to make the explanation nice and easy), for 2400bps operation, but we want to keep the 1200bd rate. We can do this by allocating four frequencies in the passband. Note that these frequencies still must be 1200Hz apart, since that's our symbol rate. Therefore, 2400bps links will consume double the bandwidth of the 1200bps link, which is expected.

Anyway, the frequencies might be assigned thus:

Code:
00 - 1200Hz
01 - 2400Hz
11 - 3600Hz
10 - 4800Hz


Note that Gray-code is used to increase the likelihood of single-bit errors, which are relatively easy to detect and correct with suitable encoding techniques.

Note that dropping the baud rate and increasing the frequencies doesn't give narrower bandwidths. You can easily transmit 2400bps data at 300bd by transmitting 8 bits at a time (256 frequencies!). 256 times 300Hz is 76800Hz bandwidth -- ouch! Again, the better the link, the more you can compact those frequencies. But still, it's going to be insanely huge.

What the Ethernet specification calls Manchester Encoding is what we call Binary Phase Shift Keying, or BPSK. The nice thing about BPSK is its bandwidth is its bit rate. With radio, you can still do one better: QPSK gives you half the bandwidth of BPSK (but requires twice as good a signal path), or put another way, keeping the same bandwidth, you can transmit twice as much data. 16PSK doubles that, and 256PSK doubles that again, etc.

I would love the opportunity to create a BPSK/QPSK-enabled modem for the 2m band, and show that it is quite possible to get 12000bps and 24000bps data throughputs on a band where 1200bps is the norm (and the expected). Can such a modem be powered by a 65816?

Anyway, I'm off-topic here. I'll stop now.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 9:31 pm 
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> Anyway, I'm off-topic here. I'll stop now.

Since this discussion has evolved to where it no longer has anything to do with EPROMs, I started another one called "Tape modems" under "hardware" at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=82 to answer the above post.

Garth

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 Post subject: eeprom vs eprom
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 5:45 am 
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The original question in part was whether to use a eeprom or another form of rom.

I built a calender device five years ago that used a 65c02 and a 28c16 eeprom that worked well. The eeprom held the application program for the 65c02.

The eeprom avoids the cost and learning curve of working with uv erasers. It is programmed using 5 volts, which is compatible with everything else in my circuit.

I had an application program about 1k long. If I remember right, the 28c16 could hold 2k.

I wrote the application program on an Apple II+. Then I wrote a program to transmit the application object code to a circuit board with a ZIF socket containing the 28c16. This circuit board was my "programmer".

The circuit board had three main parts. First was the ZIF socket containing the 28c16. Second was a set of three 4-bit counters connected to the address pins of the 28c16. These allowed me to address the upper 2k of the 28c16. Third was a serial-in parallel-out shift register. Input was from the Apple, output was to the data pins of the 28c16.

The Apple had four 1-bit "annunciator outputs". I wired these to the circuit board. The transmitting program could pulse these to send a bit or pulse to the circuit board. One line was used to pulse the counter group to increment by one. Two lines were used to send a data bit to the shift register: one line for a data bit, one for a clock to make the register readin a bit and shift. After eight bits of data(object code) had been transmitted, the fourth line initiated a write cycle to the 28c16.

The cost of a 65c02 was about $5. The cost of a 28c16 was about $5. The cost of parts to build the programming circuit board was about $20.

The PIC combined the cpu and rom and cost about $5. The cost of a programmer for the PIC was “only” about $200. This is why I decided to use the 65c02 and build my own programming circuit. “Shame on you” was the response of the local PIC representative. I guess he didn’t realize I was on a hobbyist budget.


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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2003 5:55 am 
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> The eeprom avoids the cost and learning curve of working with uv erasers.

There is no learning curve. Just put the EPROM in, and 20 minutes later, it's erased.

> It is programmed using 5 volts, which is compatible with everything else in my circuit.

Definitely convenient, and especially more so than the older EPROMs that used 25V! Usually you have 12V available for other things like RS-232 or data converters anyway, but you may need at least 1/4-volt resolution and control on the Vpp and the Vdd, depending on the programming algorithm used.

> I wrote the application program on an Apple II+. Then I wrote a
> program to transmit the application object code to a circuit board with a
> ZIF socket containing the 28c16. This circuit board was my "programmer". <snip>

Definitely resourceful, but I think the original poster's situation was that he wasn't far enough along in the learning to be able to do something like this— hence the reference to a commercially available programmer that plugs into the PC.

I made my own production-capable (not just prototyping) PIC programmer too; but it was partly because I wanted the PC to only run the assembler to put out Intel hex code, and beyond that I didn't want to be dependent on the PC for the programming. If the PIC representative said "Shame on you" to me, I'd say "Shame on YOU for using such a decrepit processor in your otherwise nice line of microcontrollers," and show him proof of how much better they'd do with a 65c02 at the core!

Garth

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