Forgive me if I am being obtuse but can one use an oscillator with the W65C134S/W65C265S instead of the specified crystal resonator circuit?

Most datasheets I have read call out if that is a possibility, sometimes requiring different configuration if one is being used. The WDC datasheet is silent on the matter. I don't have the parts on hand or I would just try it,

I have two reasons for wanting to do this:

1. I am building a very small board and would like to minimize surface area if i can
2. I would like to use a more precise timing source

Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated

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http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

I appreciate what you are saying, but WDC's involves two caps, two resistors, and in the case of the 32.768K's a variable cap (though they don't use one on their own board). I can and do hand solder 0402's, but am standardizing on 0604's on this project. So a single 3.2mmx2.5mm (Or smaller) oscillators reduces layout complexity in tight spaces, and very often saves space in my experience

It's amazing how small oscillators have gotten! Although I haven't made an actual comparison, I'm ready to believe an oscillator can be as small or smaller than a crystal plus the caps and resistor(s).

As Garth says, it should be entirely possible to feed an oscillator's output into the microcontroller's crystal input. But admittedly WDC's doc may fail to make it clear which of the two crystal pins is the input.


The variable cap is unneeded unless one is concerned about trimming to obtain exactly the right frequency. That (trimming) is one advantage, I suppose, of using a crystal resonator instead of a complete oscillator. And since the 32.768 kHz is typically what runs the time-of-day function, some people will want to be able to trim the value so the TOD clock is as accurate as possible.

-- Jeff

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In 1988 my 65C02 got six new registers and 44 new full-speed instructions!
https://laughtonelectronics.com/Arcana/ ... mmary.html

A 3.2mm x 2.5mm oscillator has a surface area of 8 sq mm. A 2.5mm x 2mm oscillator has a surface area of 5 sq mm.

Four 0604 passives and a 1.2mm x 1 mm crystal (assuming I wanted to use one that small and it met my specs) are 6.22 sq mm before you get to inter component spacing. So using an oscillator is either smaller than or about the same size as the partial Pierce Oscillator that WDC specifies (they provide the NOT gate )

But let’s ignore my reasons for wanting to us a single output oscillator because I have a huge supply of them handy. I would just like to know if anyone actually knows the answer

For the '134, at least, the datasheet does contain the answer, although it's not as blatantly overt as one might wish.

Table 1-6 suggests that the CLK and FCLK functions aren't subject to any control bits.

And Section 2.4 clearly says that CLK and FCLK are inputs, whereas CLKOB and FCLKOB are outputs. Obviously we won't be trying to drive a signal into these latter two! And...

"CLKOB, FCLKOB outputs are the inverted CLK and FCLK inputs that are used for oscillator circuits that employ crystals or a resistor-capacitor time base."

I feel safe in appending, "CLKOB, FCLKOB outputs will be left unconnected when external sources (eg: oscillators) provide the input to CLK and FCLK (ie, instead of crystals or a resistor-capacitor time bases).

As for the '265, I haven't the courage to dive into that datasheet now , but I expect some sleuthing will reveal similar results. And if you're really stuck you can contact WDC and ask.

-- Jeff

_________________
In 1988 my 65C02 got six new registers and 44 new full-speed instructions!
https://laughtonelectronics.com/Arcana/ ... mmary.html

I missed that! Thank you so very much, and I don't blame you lol

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

I've found those SOT-23-6 packages pretty manageable for hand soldering, despite their small size. It helps a lot that 4 of the 6 pins are on a corner, where the iron can approach on a diagonal.

-- Jeff
ps for anyone who hasn't seen this post already: Tiny, superfast gates rival programmable logic

_________________
In 1988 my 65C02 got six new registers and 44 new full-speed instructions!
https://laughtonelectronics.com/Arcana/ ... mmary.html

Welcome to the dumb mistake I make nearly ever week lol.

It is a dual sided load, but I have to be careful where I place components as the battery will be on the back. I am making a project that is about the size of a pocket watch. I am using a 128Kx8 F-RAM to take the place of both RAM and ROM. This is why I am using the 134s, since it will boot up into the monitor, I can download a program into lower memory that then downloads the latest firmware into upper and then reboot into its normal mode of operation.

I have wanted to make a very small 6502 based system for some time, and decided 2023 is (probably) the year it will happen.

With the small SOT and other packages, I find the trick is to put a blob of solder on one pad, keep the heat on that pad, then slide the component into place. Then it should be fairly easy to solder the other pins then reflow the first pin. A nice pair of angled tweezers and good microscope don't hurt either. When I work with 0402's I take beta blockers (with my doctors consent) which help control tremors and heart rate.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?

That's a very good idea, I will have to give it a try.

Now if only the QFP 134s weren't virtual unobtanium. I would prefer not to buy W65C134SXB's and salvage the chips... or settle and use the PLCC I suppose

Happy New Year!

Interesting... I might quote this at our manufacturing people when they moan about "not being able to do [something]"...
Our in-house manufacturing for circuit boards, as far as I can tell they do one side and then the other, rely entirely on surface tension of the solder from the 1st side to hold the parts on whilst doing the 2nd. This means we're only allowed heavy parts on one side. Its always seemed like madness to me, other companies manage to put "heavy" parts on both sides and it really does hamstring the design process not being able to do both sides for us given how tight most of our designs are for space. Personally I think they're just being a bit lazy.

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Want to design a PCB for your project? I strongly recommend KiCad. Its free, its multiplatform, and its easy to learn!
Also, I maintain KiCad libraries of Retro Computing and Arduino components you might find useful.

As an addendum I had a lovely conversation with WDC while trying to debug my board, and they confirmed that yes you can use oscillators for CLK and FCLK. They also mentioned that you won't get any output on FCLKO until after the chip been reset. It's a nice indicator if the CPU is actually working.

In my case it appears that the CPU is working, there is activity on the bus, there is FCLKO, etc but nothing is happening on any of the UART lines. It looks like I have a bad chip, so have some replacements coming in