I'm wondering if anyone is successfully using Rdy to halt a 65C02?

I tried it some time back on my Ruby boards and had mixed results - in that it worked very well - I was pulling Rdy low, then BE low, then fiddling with the RAM from another processor (an ATmega), then releasing BE then taking Rdy high ... At that point, sometimes the 65C02 would crash - it's as if it was reading a random instruction at that point.

I've read & re-read the WDC data sheet and I'm wondering if it's actually correct, given that it's known to be "interesting" in places.... Part of me is wondering if it waits until the end of the instruction cycle before the halt actually happens (but even when I did delay pulling BE low for some microseconds it didn't help - similarly pulling BE high, waiting a few microseconds then taking Rdy high didn't help)

I tried qualifying the Rdy signal with the clock (both falling and rising edges - I could not do much more with the hardware I had on that board, just one GAL) and it didn't help.

I moved to another way of controlling the system which is working well, but i'm keen to revisit this way of controlling the 65C02, so really keen to know if anyone is doing this successfully.

Thanks,

-Gordon

[edit to add the link below where I originally posted about it]

http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5861

_________________
--
Gordon Henderson.
See my Ruby 6502 and 65816 SBC projects here: https://projects.drogon.net/ruby/

_________________
x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!

With the 6502 I for example used RDY to coordinate two 6502 on the same bus. http://www.6502.org/users/andre/csa/auxcpu/index.html

On the MicroPET that uses a 65816 I tried RDY, but found that not to be working well, so I used clock stretching instead.

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Author of the GeckOS multitasking operating system, the usb65 stack, designer of the Micro-PET and many more 6502 content: http://6502.org/users/andre/

Yes, that part sound fine.


Qualifying the Rdy signal... l can you clarify? If you mean combinatorial logic, that's not the answer. In the scenario you describe (ie, accepting an asynchronous cue from the ATmega), what's required is a flipflop (clocked by the rising edge of Phi2) to condition the signal from the ATmega. This will ensure that tPCS and tPHC are satisfied (see below). Nothing tricky about it, really (for 'C02, at least). You simply need RDY to be stable -- either high or low, but not in flux -- immediately before, during, and after the fall of Phi2.

And, because the flipflop will introduce a certain delay, the ATmega mustn't be too hasty in adjusting BE. To be on the safe side, you'd wanna allow one entire 65xx clock cycle before concluding that the RDY cue has been accepted.

HTH!

-- Jeff

_________________
In 1988 my 65C02 got six new registers and 44 new full-speed instructions!
https://laughtonelectronics.com/Arcana/ ... mmary.html

Based on some suggestions a while back, I was ANDing it inside a GAL with either the rising edge of the clock or the falling edge. No real difference. But based on what you're saying that's not going to cut it. I'm not at this stage going to add more logic to the board so it looks like I'll stick to plan B for the next one.

And BE (being on a separate output pin on the ATmega) would be pulled high a good few µS after I took Rdy high - purely by the code execution time of the ATmega - both at 16Mhz but the 6502 would have had a good half dozen cycles before the ATmega even thought about raising BE (and in any case I did add explicit delays when testing it too).

Thanks,

-Gordon

_________________
--
Gordon Henderson.
See my Ruby 6502 and 65816 SBC projects here: https://projects.drogon.net/ruby/

Well, there might be other alternatives. Really what's required is any means (not necessarily a flipflop) of preventing transitions on RDY around the time that Phi2 falls.

If the ATmega is fast enough, perhaps it could repeatedly read Phi2; then, upon detecting a high-to-low transition, it would alter the state of RDY before the critical tPCS and tPCH interval at the end of the cycle.

Or, if there's a bit too much latency in the ATmega's response, it could detect a low-to-high transition instead, with the goal of issuing a cue that takes effect on the following 'C02 cycle. I think if you're sufficiently devious and stubborn the flipflop can probably be avoided.

Edit: oops, I just noticed we have both CPUs at 16Mhz. I was hoping the AT was running a lot faster.

Another alternative is to forget RDY, and use clock stretching (as BDD suggested).

-- Jeff

_________________
In 1988 my 65C02 got six new registers and 44 new full-speed instructions!
https://laughtonelectronics.com/Arcana/ ... mmary.html

(Have you got your rising and falling edges swapped around there??)

Not sure I understand. ANDing does not work on edges. Can you give more details?

Where do you detect the RDY condition? On the CPU side or the bus side? If you assert BE the bus side becomes invalid....

_________________
Author of the GeckOS multitasking operating system, the usb65 stack, designer of the Micro-PET and many more 6502 content: http://6502.org/users/andre/

The swapping is intentional. But perhaps I need to be more clear.

The idea is to have the ATmega in a (possibly unrolled) loop that waits for a transition on the 'C02's Phi2. Upon detecting said transition it'll respond by raising or lowering the output pin that directly feeds the 'C02's RDY input. In arranging this scheme, we need to know what range of delays can be expected from the Phi2 transition to the change on RDY. (The delay will vary because the two CPU's use independent clocks.)

Let's say the ATmega is very fast -- fast enough that, even accounting for jitter, we know the delay from transition to response will always be comfortably less than one 'C02 clock cycle. In this case the ATmega could detect a Phi2 hi-to-low transition and issue a response that takes effect later in the same cycle that's just beginning.

But all is not lost if the transition to response delay is slower. Let's say it's in the range of (roughly) .5 to 1.4 clock cycles. In this case the ATmega could detect a Phi2 low-to-high transition (partway through one cycle) and issue a response that takes effect later in the following cycle.

-- Jeff

_________________
In 1988 my 65C02 got six new registers and 44 new full-speed instructions!
https://laughtonelectronics.com/Arcana/ ... mmary.html

( PS to André. Some confusion here, perhaps. I think in that sentence Gordon is describing a previously attempted scheme which indeed turned out not to work. )

_________________
In 1988 my 65C02 got six new registers and 44 new full-speed instructions!
https://laughtonelectronics.com/Arcana/ ... mmary.html

I'm not detecting it - at least in this scenario, I'm not - in my current system, I am. This may be confusing.

I have a system with an ATmega and a 65C02. The ATmega can "see" 256 bytes of RAM from $FF00 through $FFFF, but only when the 65C02 is tristated (ie. BE low).

I wanted to poke data into the memory window while the 65C02 was running, so thought initially that if I simply pulled Rdy low, then pulled BE low, then did the Atmega stuff to latch onto the RAM, store the data then do the reverse, the 6502 would not notice anything but "magically" would see new data.

I now know this doesn't work, so I have another solution that does work - it's driven from the 65C02 which executes a WAI instruction, which stops the 65C02 and sets Rdy low which the Atmega detects and does what it needs to do (bring BE low, etc. ) and finished off by sending an NMI to the 65C02 to wake it from WAI.

What I was looking to do was re-investigate the issue I had back then (2 years ago, thread linked in my first post), and see if anyone knew why so I might again look at it on my next board.

Anyway, thanks for all the input so-far. I think I might just leave this to rest for a while and file my current solution in the "if it aint broke, don't fix it" drawer...

Cheers,

-Gordon

_________________
--
Gordon Henderson.
See my Ruby 6502 and 65816 SBC projects here: https://projects.drogon.net/ruby/

I think you need to be careful with relying on the WAI here - I believe any interrupt from any source will cause it to continue, and with BE low it's not going to be very happy. Perhaps if you tie RDY to BE through a resistor - instead of to +5V with the resistor as normal - it will then guarantee that RDY is held low until BE goes high again, even if an interrupt occurs. Or maybe you're already making the Arduino drive RDY after it has detected the initial low-going pulse.

I'm not sure how the 6502 responds to BE being low with RDY high and clock pulses happening. I guess it just tries to execute random instructions, which is not going to end well.

What is the fetish with parentheses on this forum? I have not seen it anywhere else.

Is it a 6502 thing? Indirect reference?

_________________
x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!

_________________
x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!