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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:34 am 
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Posts: 146
Some very interesting points there too! Would it be better to run the CPU at a lower voltage, in the meantime (obviously at the cost of top end clock speed, which isn't a real concern to me at this point).

The RAM I am using is ISSI61C1024AL and it's guaranteed high is in fact 2.4v.

Although, measuring with the oscilloscope it is pumping out a solid 4.4v on the data and address lines (even with the pull down resisters in place). But, certainly something for me to keep in mind.

With where I am at right at the moment, I have a quick break down of what the CPU is doing.

Code:
C000   C0
C001   00
C002   8E
C003   10
C004   C0
C010   11   (<< Writen value - Does increment, goes up each time reset, but shouldn't as it should be reset to zero each time the program is run)
C005   E8
C006   00
C007   10
0199   C0
0198   08
0197   35
FFFE   12    ( Seems to go off in to cyberspace from here)
FFFF   00
0012   00


Keep in mind I'm still a newbie to 6502 coding, but it appears to be storing (or trying to store) $C008 on the stack, probably so it knows where to jump back to? Is this right?

So would this indicate that I need to investigate the read/write timings?


[edit]

A bit of further investigation. This is where I'd love to have a four channel oscilloscope. LOL

It looks like I need to address those write times. Be back soon! Haha!


Attachments:
5.png
5.png [ 14.1 KiB | Viewed 520 times ]
4.png
4.png [ 41.37 KiB | Viewed 520 times ]


Last edited by J64C on Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:51 am 
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J64C wrote:
Thanks once again for the info there. Funnily enough, Western Design Center recommended your site to me themselves over on Twitter. 8)

Tons and tons of awesome information. You have done extremely well!

Thankyou. Additional material I want to post should approximately double the size of the site. It takes a lot of time though. What's there is a result of 9+ years of having the site. Maybe in in 9 more years I'll have it doubled. Existing material will keep getting updated and improved too. Bill Mensch and I have talked many times, including on the phone and over a three-hour lunch. We seem to have a good relationship. So far it's interest-only. Perhaps in the future we can have some sort of business cooperation to promote the 65's in computer education.

Quote:
Although, measuring with the oscilloscope it is pumping out a solid 4.4v on the data and address lines (even with the pull down resistors in place).

How fast do they come up? I wonder if the 2.4V is also about a short time, as the bus-charging current capacity will dramatically decrease as the voltage rises such that the voltage voltage guarantee is so low because they're talking about operating at the speed limit. They specify the 2.4V at 4mA.

Your $C0 in the first line is CPY#, not LDX#. I didn't go through the whole thing, but you might want to check the others.

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
I attach images and other files to posts—that way they will be there for the life of the post
meaning it will avoid the possibility of the picture link going dead.

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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:14 am 
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GARTHWILSON wrote:
Thankyou. Additional material I want to post should approximately double the size of the site. It takes a lot of time though. What's there is a result of 9+ years of having the site. Maybe in in 9 more years I'll have it doubled. Existing material will keep getting updated and improved too. Bill Mensch and I have talked many times, including on the phone and over a three-hour lunch. We seem to have a good relationship. So far it's interest-only. Perhaps in the future we can have some sort of business cooperation to promote the 65's in computer education.

That is very awesome indeed!

GARTHWILSON wrote:
How fast do they come up? I wonder if the 2.4V is also about a short time, as the bus-charging current capacity will dramatically decrease as the voltage rises such that the voltage voltage guarantee is so low because they're talking about operating at the speed limit. They specify the 2.4V at 4mA.

Not sure on the rise time, I'll have to look deeper in to that.

GARTHWILSON wrote:
Your $C0 in the first line is CPY#, not LDX#. I didn't go through the whole thing, but you might want to check the others.

Nice pick up! Although the source code is very much LDX#.

Attachment:
6.png
6.png [ 8.99 KiB | Viewed 520 times ]


So, either I have a loose connection on the data lines somewhere, or the rise/fall times on the RAM are already coming in to play. Thinking about it, loose connection would be more likely wouldn't it? Running at 1Hz, is should be well and truly stable when PHI2 goes low (shouldn't it?).


[edit]
Yep! Some profuse wire jiggling bout it back to 'A2' at that location. Still going off in to 'no mans land' midway through the program, I'll double check the reset of the program matches up and then look at addressing this write signal.


Last edited by J64C on Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:40 am 
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Location: North Tejas
Any particular reason you do a CLC?

Unlike ADC and SBC, CMP ignores the state of the carry flag.


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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:08 am 
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BillG wrote:
Any particular reason you do a CLC?

Unlike ADC and SBC, CMP ignores the state of the carry flag.


Yep, because I am a newbie. Nothing more than that. :lol:


[edit]
Oh and after all that, I was using pull up resistors. Been a while since I looked at my circuit diagram. 3.3K pull ups.


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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:21 am 
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Just a quick note: beware of updating posts by editing them. Anyone who saw them before your update will miss it. I recommend posting an update instead - multiple posts from the same person is no problem, if there's a reason for them.

On the topic of mega-threads, I'd distinguish between the one case, where it's a project log showing development progress, and the other case, where it's a series of interesting and difficult problems to be solved. In that second case, a thread for a problem, with a suitable subject line, is much much better for future reference. This site is such a good resource in part because it has so much history, and that's much more useful if it can be found.

As Garth notes, making links forwards and backwards to join related threads is good practice too. For example, a project thread would link forwards to a problem thread, and the problem thread would link back to the project thread.


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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:52 am 
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Awesome! Thanks for the heads up. :D

So now that this is becoming more of a 'dev log' and observations, do you think I'd be better off starting a new thread in Hardware and call it "J64C's Homebrew" or something? Seems like a good idea to me.


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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:00 am 
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J64C wrote:
FFFE 12 ( Seems to go off in to cyberspace from here)

$FFFE is the 65C02's IRQ/BRK hardware vector. Do you have something connected that is able to generate an IRQ? Further to that, look carefully at your code for a $00 opcode, which is BRK. Unless you have something in place to handle an IRQ or a BRK instruction, your machine will go into the weeds. That "something in place" would be an interrupt service routine(ISR), and the vector at $FFFE/$FFFF would have to point to the ISR.

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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:21 am 
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Nope, nothing on the IRQ lines. They are tied high via 3.3K resistors.

I'm suspecting the CPU is just getting corrupted somewhere due to my timings (as I am only running on the high phase of PHI2). I'm simplifying the circuit again, as I type, to get it back to bare basics, making sure my read/write operations are performing correctly with a full clock. Once, I'm happy with that, I'll go back to getting it working on just the high phase.


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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:28 am 
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J64C wrote:
So now that this is becoming more of a 'dev log' and observations, do you think I'd be better off starting a new thread in Hardware and call it "J64C's Homebrew" or something? Seems like a good idea to me.

Probably a good idea. I would suggest that you assign a version number to the "J64C Homebrew" moniker, so when you move on to your next design you can distinguish between the two. So your topic title could be "J64C Homebrew V1.0" or something similar.

Also, I'd suggest that in the first post in your new topic you summarize what you've accomplished so far, and what your aspirations and goals are. Posting a schematic would be a good idea as well, preferably in monochrome. It doesn't have to be anything fancy—Garth's schematics are nothing more than sketches, but are succinct and clear. I use a schematic editor, mainly because my sketches are nearly illegible, even to me. :shock:

Quote:
The RAM I am using is ISSI61C1024AL and it's guaranteed high is in fact 2.4v.

I've got the same SRAM in my POC units and have not use data bus pullups in any of them. All operate at double-digit clock speeds—POC V1.2 is stable at 20 MHz with that SRAM.

Quote:
Some profuse wire jiggling bout it back to 'A2' at that location.

Something that has been mentioned several times by Ed and others is this: electronic design and construction is a very detail-oriented activity. You cannot make assumptions about anything and expect to develop a working system. That means studying timing, especially, and going over your designs with a fine-tooth comb to ferret out mistakes in logic or circuit layout errors that will result in a DOA unit. It also means using good assembly techniques, so contretemps such as loose wires don't ambush you. :)

It gets discouraging when you power up and nothing happens, or you fill the room with nasty-smelling smoke (been there, done that :D), or one of your electrolytics goes POP! because it was inserted backwards (been there, done that too :oops:). Being meticulous reduces the likelihood of any of that happening and greatly increases the chances of your contraption working on the first try.

Quote:
I'm suspecting the CPU is just getting corrupted somewhere due to my timings (as I am only running on the high phase of PHI2). I'm simplifying the circuit again, as I type, to get it back to bare basics, making sure my read/write operations are performing correctly with a full clock. Once, I'm happy with that, I'll go back to getting it working on just the high phase.

What is generating your Ø2 clock signal? WDC specifies that the clock signal have a maximum rise/fall time of 5ns. While I'm sure you can cheat with that a bit, if the rise/fall time is ridiculously long, you really can't expect proper operation. Let's see the schematic for your entire unit, including device part numbers.

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Last edited by BigDumbDinosaur on Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:04 am 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Posting a schematic would be a good idea as well, preferably in monochrome. It doesn't have to be anything fancy—Garth's schematics are nothing more than sketches, but are succinct and clear.

Among my reasons for doing them that way are there are major things I dislike about every schematic-capture software I've tried, and that I want to show that you don't have to know how to use CAD or any fancy graphics software to make a website. "Professional" and "clear" are two different things, mostly unrelated.

BTW, let me recommend making real schematics, as opposed to just netlists written around boxes. It will make it much easier to follow. Also, draw the buses as heavier lines with the breakouts, resembling a wiring harness (as used in cars) with the individual wires exiting at appropriate places, rather than scads of individual parallel lines that are hard to follow. There's an example at http://wilsonminesco.com/6502primer/pot ... ml#BAS_CPU, drawn with a pencil and put in the scanner. (I also write my web pages with just a simple text editor, and type in the html directly.)


Quote:
It gets discouraging when you power up and nothing happens, or you fill the room with nasty-smelling smoke (been there, done that :D), or one of your electrolytics goes POP! because it was inserted backwards (been there, done that too :oops:).
Yep, did that one in 1982 when I was working at TEAC. The can shot out and hit the ceiling, and the insides made of mess which I seem to remember resembling cotton candy inside the tape recorder.

Quote:
Being meticulous reduces the likelihood of any of that happening and greatly increases of you contraption working on the first try.
Yes, one of the newcomers (I don't remember who) recently made the impression on me that he thought details don't matter, or that they could be left for later. That won't lead to success though.

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The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:49 am 
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Quote:
Yes, one of the newcomers (I don't remember who) recently made the impression on me that he thought details don't matter, or that they could be left for later. That won't lead to success though.

Thankfully, I'm a very meticulous person. I know, it's one thing saying it and another thing proving it, which hopefully over time you'll see, once you get to know me. I'm not a big fan of "it works but I don't know why". :lol:

I'm also the first to admit where I don't know something, which is the other half of the battle (and there is tons I don't know).

I think I will make a topic dedicated to the build. Kind of a 'dev log' where I can show progress, fails, and successes, as the project takes life. Even though the 'homebrew computer' side of it is just beginning, it is already a culmination of five separate projects that I have created over the past year to get where it is now. So hopefully someone might find it interesting. :D


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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:39 pm 
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Hello, J64C. Just a reminder that it really is better to attach images to your posts (rather than using a third-party image hosting site). Maybe if you get a minute you could accordingly update your posts in this thread, pls & thx.

J64C wrote:
Although, measuring with the oscilloscope [the RAM] is pumping out a solid 4.4v on the data and address lines
Okay, you've clarified that there are 3.3k pullups in place. This will explain the nice, high levels on the data lines. But the RAM's address lines are inputs, so the levels you see there are pumped out by the CPU, not the RAM. :wink:

Looking forward to seeing a schematic, BTW!

-- Jeff

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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:26 pm 
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Dr Jefyll wrote:
Hello, J64C. Just a reminder that it really is better to attach images to your posts (rather than using a third-party image hosting site). Maybe if you get a minute you could accordingly update your posts in this thread, pls & thx.


Done! :D


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 Post subject: Re: 'BE' usage question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:30 pm 
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Just created a thread about my little 'homebrew' (or lack thereof :lol: ) over here - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6688


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