6502.org Forum  Projects  Code  Documents  Tools  Forum
It is currently Tue Sep 17, 2024 3:13 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 135 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:00 am
Posts: 2353
Location: Gouda, The Netherlands
Quote:
Cypress Semiconductor Corp., who makes very high speed static RAM, disagrees with you

No they don't. The order of connection is only important if the trace impedance is significant. At these frequencies and distances it isn't.

And if you really care about these tiny effects, the first thing you should do is get rid of the DIP parts, IC sockets, and leaded capacitors.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:09 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:09 am
Posts: 8508
Location: Southern California
There are links to Dr. Johnson's short articles on bypass-capacitor choice and layout at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2247&p=24906#p24906.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:00 am
Posts: 2353
Location: Gouda, The Netherlands
The good Dr. Johnson also disagrees with Cypress Semiconductor Corp
Quote:
Dr. Johnson replies:

Carl, I like your first approach best (Figure 1a). The idea of sequencing your bypass connections from the VCC plane, to a bypass capacitor, and then to you IC power pin is very old. Those who advocate this approach usually justify the circuit (if there is any explanation at all) as an attempt to construct a filter network with the stated objective of "keeping power supply noise contained at the IC site, preventing it from getting out onto the larger pcb".

In the context of a high-speed digital pcb with solid power and ground planes, sequencing the bypass connection does not accomplish that goal. A power filter by itself does not prevent noise escaping into the pcb. Even if you power your IC from its own internal battery source, without involving the external power system at all, you still can't prevent noise escaping into the pcb because it couples into the pcb through the I/O traces of your IC.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:43 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Southampton, UK
Arlet wrote:
Quote:
Cypress Semiconductor Corp., who makes very high speed static RAM, disagrees with you

No they don't. The order of connection is only important if the trace impedance is significant. At these frequencies and distances it isn't.

And if you really care about these tiny effects, the first thing you should do is get rid of the DIP parts, IC sockets, and leaded capacitors.


My computer has a system clock rate of less then 10Mhz. It uses through hole parts, including the caps, with sockets. To make the board layout simpler, I have gone for 4 layers: two signal layers on the outsides, and ground and Vcc in interior layers. While the board would probably function without a single decoupling cap, I have decided to try to do things "properly" and include decoupling caps on all ICs.

So the next question is: how should I connect the caps up?

Should I really not bother using traces and just place them close by? That is certainly the easiest solution, but is it "right"? Under what conditions would it not be the best arrangement?

_________________
8 bit fun and games: https://www.aslak.net/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:44 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:09 am
Posts: 8508
Location: Southern California
The lowest-impedance traces for them are the planes themselves.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:00 am
Posts: 2353
Location: Gouda, The Netherlands
If it's easy and it works, then it is "right". What more do you hope to get ?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:43 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Southampton, UK
Arlet wrote:
If it's easy and it works, then it is "right". What more do you hope to get ?


Very pleased; yet more reasons why power planes are useful, though a bit of a splurge, even on through-hole designs. Thanks guys. PCB design amended.

_________________
8 bit fun and games: https://www.aslak.net/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:24 am
Posts: 740
Location: A missile silo somewhere under southern England
Ok here's my current layout. It's a 4 layer board wit the VCC and GND hidden. I've still got to route a few more tracks(they are the ultra thin yellow lines), but most of it's done. I used the remaining two tracks to route all the signals with a very occasionally dip into the VCC or GND layers when there wasn't a more feasible route.
What do people think?


Attachments:
Untitled.png
Untitled.png [ 941.75 KiB | Viewed 441 times ]
Untitled2.png
Untitled2.png [ 497.79 KiB | Viewed 441 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:26 pm
Posts: 1948
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
You made some interesting component placement choices, which seem (to this untrained eye) to be causing a longer-than-necessary average trace length. Was this placement random, or was it affected by external constraints, like edge connector placement?

Mike


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:27 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:09 am
Posts: 8508
Location: Southern California
This may help: All the board houses I've used have absolutely no difficulty and no extra charge to go down to .006"/.006" trace and space. You appear to be using much wider traces and spaces. You can run two traces between pads on a given layer. This does not make the board any less reliable or any more delicate, so don't be afraid of it. Then I'm sure you can avoid using the power plane for signal traces. Some board manufacturers can go down to .002/.002 (and have been doing it for 25 years), but that does cost a lot extra.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:00 am
Posts: 2353
Location: Gouda, The Netherlands
I agree with Garth. Having the option of putting two traces between pins opens up a lot of extra possibilities. Also if you have 6 mil trace and clearance, it helps to set your grid also to 6 mil.

Edit: or use a slightly larger 6.25 mil grid, which makes it easier to align with 100 mil pin spacing, while not sacrificing much in terms of routing density. Also, check your hole sizes and pad rings. Bigger holes and pads makes for easier insertion and soldering, but leaves less room for traces to squeeze through them. If you use sockets, check their datasheets for recommended hole diameter.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:46 pm
Posts: 8382
Location: Midwestern USA
banedon wrote:
Ok here's my current layout. It's a 4 layer board wit the VCC and GND hidden. I've still got to route a few more tracks(they are the ultra thin yellow lines), but most of it's done. I used the remaining two tracks to route all the signals with a very occasionally dip into the VCC or GND layers when there wasn't a more feasible route.
What do people think?

Why are you qualifying /RAM_SEL with Ø2?

_________________
x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:43 pm
Posts: 258
Location: Southampton, UK
I would have thought 8 (or even 10?) mil traces on a 25 mil grid would be sufficient for such a board. It does not have any SMT or even PLCC parts. It might introduce a few more vias but that is no biggie.

PCB layout is an art, indeed.

_________________
8 bit fun and games: https://www.aslak.net/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:00 am
Posts: 2353
Location: Gouda, The Netherlands
Quote:
It might introduce a few more vias but that is no biggie.

But it would be nice to route the last couple of signals without having to dip into the power/ground planes.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Star Ground
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:24 am
Posts: 740
Location: A missile silo somewhere under southern England
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
banedon wrote:
Ok here's my current layout. It's a 4 layer board wit the VCC and GND hidden. I've still got to route a few more tracks(they are the ultra thin yellow lines), but most of it's done. I used the remaining two tracks to route all the signals with a very occasionally dip into the VCC or GND layers when there wasn't a more feasible route.
What do people think?

Why are you qualifying /RAM_SEL with Ø2?

So that it will only enable the RAM on the rising edge of Ø2. The address decoding scheme is from Gareth's Primer as I wanted a bit of speed and didn't want to us e a decoder or (C)PLD.

I don't have any real experience of PCB routing so I uased the defaults given to me for track thickness, etc. by Eagle. However, doesn't the extra copper in thicker tracks help over come resistance?

barrym95838 wrote:
You made some interesting component placement choices, which seem (to this untrained eye) to be causing a longer-than-necessary average trace length. Was this placement random, or was it affected by external constraints, like edge connector placement?

Mike


I needed to keep the core signalling components in the centre as they communicate with most other devices. The power can be (and will be) moved to the emptier end of the board - unless this is a bad idea. It got moved to where iot currently is from when i was ghoing to create a star ground setup.
Another issue was that I wanted a little extra space for routing the buses as I found that I ran out of space when I tried routing this board before. This might now not be an issue if I drop the trace thicknesses...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 135 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: