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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:47 pm 
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The Gigatron computer is all TTL, but in this case made up with some HCT, some LS, and some old-school proper 74 series. The differences are dramatic:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:13 pm 
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But wouldn't that be a function of "use"? As in, not all parts are being used the same. Therefore, some parts would get hotter than others the more they are used?

Or am I missing the overall point?

I do like that image though. :-)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:15 pm 
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Maybe - unlike CMOS, TTL dissipates power even when it's standing still. It might be, though, that for example driving low takes more power than driving high, or vice versa. It's possible that the inputs dissipate different amounts of power depending on whether they are being pulled low or high...


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:09 pm 
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cbmeeks wrote:
But wouldn't that be a function of "use"? As in, not all parts are being used the same. Therefore, some parts would get hotter than others the more they are used?

As Ed said, TTL wastes a lot of power just sitting the doing nothing. OTOH, CMOS's power dissipation is basically proportional to the switching frequency. Especially if the external loads are also CMOS, it really only takes power when switching, to charge up parasitic capacitances. At zero Hz, power basically goes to zero also. (There's only a minor amount of leakage, on the order of a nanoamp or less.) See the graphs on page 3 (or page 2 if you don't count the front page that says "Fairchild is now part of ON Semiconductor") of the .pdf ap. note "Comparison of MM74HC to 74LS, 74S and 74ALS Logic." (This and other relevant links are in the 6502 primer's page 6, "74xx Logic Families and Timing Margins.")

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Shouldn't it be feasible to build a Gigatron using only CMOS chips?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:57 pm 
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Depends what chips they're using. Not all of the 74 series chips are available in all logic families, particularly some of the more complex ones like the 74x181 & 74x281 ALUs are, as far as I know, only available in TTL versions.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:18 pm 
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The kit is supplied with 74HCTxxx chips, alas, you can't see this in this photo of my Gigatron:
Low res version
Image

High res, but upside down version
Image

The Gigatron web site is here :wink:

Mark


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:30 pm 
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BigEd wrote:
Maybe - unlike CMOS, TTL dissipates power even when it's standing still. It might be, though, that for example driving low takes more power than driving high, or vice versa. It's possible that the inputs dissipate different amounts of power depending on whether they are being pulled low or high...

Regarding power consumption, each manufacturers version of a 74xxx series chip may be different (the function and pin-out are defined, not the actual internal circuitry, so this may be different between different manufacturers versions), each family will of course be different. And the current logic state of each chip may cause different power consumption, including the load that it's output pins are driving. The less power hungry chips will also have different power consumptions at higher frequencies compared to their static current consumption.

But in general terms, the original 74xxx are the most power hungry (compared to later versions).

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:25 am 
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Ah yes, the 74HCT series are CMOS chips with TTL-compatible input levels. But I was thinking of a pure CMOS version, without any TTL legacy involved.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:01 am 
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For some more info about the innards of different TTL logic families, take a look at project 54/74.
It's about reverse engineering TTL chips (including CMOS).

Edit:
I think that CMOS is supposed to be as good as bipolar TTL nowaday when it comes to ESD discharge,
so because of the lower power consumption 74HC\HCT\AC\ACT CMOS is the better choise...
except if the chip you want to use isn't available in CMOS (74LS181).

Gigatron uses adders and multiplexers instead of 74181 for the ALU, avoiding this problem.

BTW: When it came to bus drivers, I had used 74LS\ALS\F\HCT\ACT245.
Signals on the bus had looked best with Fairchild 74ALS245.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:54 am 
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Chromatix wrote:
Ah yes, the 74HCT series are CMOS chips with TTL-compatible input levels. But I was thinking of a pure CMOS version, without any TTL legacy involved.

With the danger of drifting off topic, but I am curious which type / range you are thinking of. The CMOS 4000 range maybe? The trouble here would be that the pin-outs are often different.
Or were you referring to the 74Cxxx or the 74HCxxx families? [I think there is a very good chance that the Gigatron would work if all the chips fitted were from the 74HCxxx family, 74HCTxxx were likely chosen so that it would work if mixed with 74xxx, 74LSxxx, 74ALSxxx and 74HCTxxx on the same board].
Or do you mean something completely different?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:10 am 
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I do mean 74HC or 74AC series.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:21 pm 
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Once upon a time :lol: there were clearly separated 54/74 series TT-logic circuits on one hand and CMOS logic circuits on the other hand. Their pinnings were distinct in almost all cases. Then various variants of TTL were designed (H=faster/L=lesser power/S=with schottky diodes for acceleration/LS/and more). When they'd learned to dramatically increased the speed of CMOS circuits (HC) they copied known functions and pinnings between CMOS and xxx-TTL: you could buy a CD40174 which is pin compatible to a 74xxx174 as well as 74xxx4040 which has the same pinning as a CD4040. Today you can use these numbers just to say which pinning is inherited from which device/family. Nothing else.

A nice table is on wikipedia.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:09 pm 
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The CD4000 series is super slow compared to anything except 74C__, but it can handle up to 15V. I recently put a CD40106 hex Schmitt-trigger inverter in a circuit that needed to be able to run with a 9V battery without regulation, for my work. The circuit is intentionally never powered down, but a 9V battery will last for years. I've used other logic ones in the past where speed was no issue but where it had to be able to run at 13V, and then of course the 4066, 4051, 4052, and 4053 analog switches to switch audio signals that could swing 12V.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:50 pm 
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Chromatix wrote:
I do mean 74HC or 74AC series.


You might have trouble with the 74AC series. There are some awfully long traces on the Megatron. They'd ring like church bells.

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