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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:31 pm 
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Tor wrote:
If HTTP were to be re-invented I would be fine with just a single change: No user-agent string. That was a huge mistake. Everything would have been different without it.

Maybe.

It might be worse without it. Every site would just assume we're all running the latest Internet Exploder anyway.

HTTP was great for what it was intended to be: a hypertext reader. But it's been morphed into something it's not good at: a smart virtual terminal.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Tor wrote:
If HTTP were to be re-invented I would be fine with just a single change: No user-agent string. That was a huge mistake. Everything would have been different without it.

Amen to that!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:40 pm 
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Arlet wrote:
Probably for the better. Ripping up big complex projects and starting again tends to make even bigger messes.


I don't buy that. Following that logic, we'd still be communicating by telegraph; it would have been considered a complex system, too big to improve. At some point, the new, better ideas must sweep away the old. It just takes something "better". Some day HTTP, HTML, etc will be as archaic as people tapping out messages on a morse key is today. I'm looking forward to that.

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HTTP was great for what it was intended to be: a hypertext reader. But it's been morphed into something it's not good at: a smart virtual terminal.


Round and round we go .... First we had dumb text terminals, then we had smart text terminals, then we had dumb (logic server side) HTML forms, now we have "smart" (logic client side) HTML forms. HTML made some sense, till someone came up with the <form> tag.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:52 pm 
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Aslak3 wrote:
I don't buy that. Following that logic, we'd still be communicating by telegraph; it would have been considered a complex system, too big to improve. At some point, the new, better ideas must sweep away the old. It just takes something "better". Some day HTTP, HTML, etc will be as archaic as people tapping out messages on a morse key is today. I'm looking forward to that..

A telegraph is not a complex project at all. The problem with replacing HTTP/HTML and all the other stuff built on top is that you actually need a lot of this complexity to get things done that you want. A re-implementation will be another complex project in its own right. And because you're starting from scratch, without any ties to the past, everything becomes possible, and every vendor will want to be sure that their ideas get implemented.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:55 pm 
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The modern web browser is what we called "client/server" back in the day. PowerBuilder, Visual Basic, etc. "Fat" clients is what we call them today.

For awhile, yea, the browser was the current generation of the smart terminal. Now it's moved beyond that.

I will say this. I have never been as productive as I was back in the green screen days. Back then I could single handedly pound out a full distribution system. Today, not so much.

Not because the domain has changed that much -- order entry is order entry, but the modern interfaces and client expectations just kill progress on the project. Now there's a boatload of finish work above and beyond simply getting the data in and out of the system and managing workflows.

Plus, we record a boat load more data today than we did in the past.

But, especially for me, the modern UIs just crush the development, even with the modern tools it's still awful. For a data entry screen, having to deal with inputs at a granularity of what pixel was clicked is simply too fine grained, but everything has to be exposed as if that's something people actually care about which explodes the complexity and cognitive load of getting the work done.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:19 pm 
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Again, very OT, but there's probably little else to discuss about a C64 WiFi modem, so I'll go along. Bill, it reminds me of the private school my wife teaches at, where I also worked over 35 years ago, and I was on the board from 1998-2004. In the 1970's, there were three campuses, and two accountants took care of it all, by hand. After the computer revolution, the head administrator got computers put in everywhere, and the accounting department took away what used to be a classroom, and it took several more people to do all the accounting, because of computers. Granted, they were tracking things they couldn't track before; but they had done fine without it. A computer lab was also put in, taking away another classroom from each campus. Kids went there for a couple of periods a week to learn to play on the computers. The program was taking advantage of the parents' fear (at the time) that the kid would grow up being "afraid of computers." (My sarcastic answer to that was that a horse could be trained to not be afraid of automobiles a hundred years earlier, but that didn't give the horse any use for an automobile. My point was not that computers were useless, but that the argument was invalid.) Particularly back then, computers and software became outdated very quickly, so there were frequent infusions of tens of thousands of dollars to update it all, while it was gradually becoming that the kid had a better computer at home.

FWIW, my own opinion is that html and web pages have gone too far in the cutesie department, for marketing, using annoying pop-ups, irritating viscosity effects, making things move without my permission, background images behind the text that make it harder to read, and other special effects. There's a good reason my website is as simple as it is.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:02 pm 
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But... visual6502!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:08 pm 
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The only thing worse than HTML these days is PSK-31. It takes a 2GHz processor and a whole lot of hardware and software to send and receive text at 31 baud.

If I had time, I'd like to prove it can be done with a 60s transceiver (and some filtering) and a 70s computer.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:57 am 
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KC9UDX wrote:
The only thing worse than HTML these days is PSK-31. It takes a 2GHz processor and a whole lot of hardware and software to send and receive text at 31 baud.

If I had time, I'd like to prove it can be done with a 60s transceiver (and some filtering) and a 70s computer.

31 baud? Is that a misprint?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:15 am 
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whartung wrote:
I will say this. I have never been as productive as I was back in the green screen days. Back then I could single handedly pound out a full distribution system. Today, not so much.

Repeat after me. New technology isn't necessarily better technology.

Speaking of the days of monochrome ASCII terminals, workers tended to get more done on them because it was all typing, not a combination of typing and mouse movement. Also, terminals didn't crash and the host machines with which they were communicating seldom crashed as well. There were none of the contretemps we routinely experience with Microsoft Windows. Users actually could use the system, as long as the software was well designed.

I have three clients who are still processing on terminals, mainly because they want the simplicity and reliability. One of them is running on a vertical package that we wrote for them 20 years ago. They are not interested in switching to more modern software because they don't want the inevitable headaches of migration and a new learning curve—or the technical problems that typically infest systems running on Windows.

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Not because the domain has changed that much -- order entry is order entry, but the modern interfaces and client expectations just kill progress on the project. Now there's a boatload of finish work above and beyond simply getting the data in and out of the system and managing workflows.

That's the part that seems to be lost on today's users. The mechanics of running a business—order entry, invoicing, cash flow management, etc.—have changed little over the years. In addition to being the supposed brains around here, I am also the chief paper-pusher and head clerk (although a gal who comes in twice per week takes care of feeding the file cabinets). The principles behind all that work haven't changed since I started the company nearly 32 years ago. All that is changed is a machine does some of the repetitive grunt work.

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Plus, we record a boat load more data today than we did in the past.

A boat-load of data of questionable value. I am astonished at some of the things some of my clients track because they are able to track them. A lot of it is tedious minutia that has little long term value. What I think is happening is they have this big, powerful computer that can stored hundreds of gigabytes of data, so they feel they have to store hundreds of gigabytes of data.

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But, especially for me, the modern UIs just crush the development, even with the modern tools it's still awful. For a data entry screen, having to deal with inputs at a granularity of what pixel was clicked is simply too fine grained, but everything has to be exposed as if that's something people actually care about which explodes the complexity and cognitive load of getting the work done.

Yet, despite the modern user interfaces the users still mess up their work. :(

GARTHWILSON wrote:
FWIW, my own opinion is that html and web pages have gone too far in the cutesie department, for marketing, using annoying pop-ups, irritating viscosity effects, making things move without my permission, background images behind the text that make it harder to read, and other special effects. There's a good reason my website is as simple as it is.

I concur. I particularly find gratuitous use of Adobe Flash to animate little zoogies on the screen to be exceptionally annoying—and don't get me started on pale white screens with light pastel text in ridiculous fonts. Just because it is possible to do it doesn't mean we should do it.

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Last edited by BigDumbDinosaur on Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:19 am 
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BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
KC9UDX wrote:
The only thing worse than HTML these days is PSK-31. It takes a 2GHz processor and a whole lot of hardware and software to send and receive text at 31 baud.

If I had time, I'd like to prove it can be done with a 60s transceiver (and some filtering) and a 70s computer.

31 baud? Is that a misprint?


No. It's a very popular mode of communication, actually. And very seriously, it takes a pretty powerful computer and a ton of software to do it. Only because that's the way things are done today.

I seriously wish I had time to do it; I know exactly how I would. All I need is to build the right modem (and it wouldn't be that complicated) and I could do PSK-31 with a PET or a homebrew 5 chip 6502 machine. I would likely even include the waterfall that everyone is so gaga about.


Last edited by KC9UDX on Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:20 am 
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KC9UDX wrote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
KC9UDX wrote:
The only thing worse than HTML these days is PSK-31. It takes a 2GHz processor and a whole lot of hardware and software to send and receive text at 31 baud.

If I had time, I'd like to prove it can be done with a 60s transceiver (and some filtering) and a 70s computer.

31 baud? Is that a misprint?

No. It's a very popular mode of communication, actually. And very seriously, it takes a pretty powerful computer and a ton of software to do it. Only because that's the way things are done today.

Back when I started on this stuff (late 1960s) 31 baud was the speed of a good modem. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:24 am 
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The thing about PSK-31 is that many, many 31 baud signals are transmitted and received in a very small amount of RF spectrum. The filtering needed to acheive it is always done in SDR, but I don't beliieve it must be.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:15 am 
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PSK-31 sounds interesting! I see this project was successful on Teensy, an ARM-based microcontroller, but couldn't quite get the 8kHz sampling rate with an Arduino:
https://github.com/zenmetsu/radioModem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP2bhPpZcmY
via this thread.


Last edited by BigEd on Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:38 am 
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Nice! That was actually my initial intent, either a microcontroller, or an RPi, but I didn't have time to do anything and couldn't interest anyone else, because everyone else just uses an old Windows laptop, or whatever they use.

I decided it would be more fun to do in analogue anyway, but still have no time to start a project like that.

Hopefully at some point though I can get an 8-bit machine sending and receiving with my KW and Drake transceivers. I refuse to connect a Widows machine to my radio gear. Especially for something 31 baud. I have a C64 ready, and a PET not far away. All I need is a modem. Maybe that one will work.


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