6502.org Forum  Projects  Code  Documents  Tools  Forum
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:45 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 21, 2018 8:39 am
Posts: 41
Does anyone know where can I find a disk image of the latest version of the Lisa assembler (version 3.2)?
(I've already downloaded v.2.5)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 21, 2018 8:39 am
Posts: 41
Nobody? :/

Is it illegal to download a disk image of Lisa Assembler v.3.2 or is it some kind of.....snobbery to the specific assembler?

I'm really confused now!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:46 pm
Posts: 8114
Location: Midwestern USA
Despite extensive experience with 65xx assembly language, I have to confess I have never heard of the Lisa assembler. Perhaps you haven't got a response because others have that same lack of familiarity.

_________________
x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 21, 2018 8:39 am
Posts: 41
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
.....I have to confess I have never heard of the Lisa assembler.......


"Lazer's Interactive Symbolic Assembler (Lisa) is an interactive MOS 6502 assembler for Apple II computers written by Randall Hyde in the late 1970s" Wikipedia

Okayyyyy :|


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:26 pm
Posts: 1918
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
BDD is very "old-school", and is inclined to shoot from the hip before bothering with any of them newfangled search Injuns. I immediately recognized LISA, being from the 8-bit Apple club. I did some poking around, but couldn't easily come up with a 3.2 disk image, free or otherwise. Perhaps it's still being "protected" in some fashion?

_________________
Got a kilobyte lying fallow in your 65xx's memory map? Sprinkle some VTL02C on it and see how it grows on you!

Mike B. (about me) (learning how to github)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:54 pm
Posts: 660
Location: North-Germany
As I do not have an Apple I was not familiar with LISA etc. But don't know what you have done so far, I found this.
And without any questions I've got a ZIP:
Attachment:
LisaAssembler25D.zip [157.67 KiB]
Downloaded 200 times

Cheers


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 21, 2018 8:39 am
Posts: 41
GaBuZoMeu wrote:
As I do not have an Apple I was not familiar with LISA etc. But don't know what you have done so far, I found this.
And without any questions I've got a ZIP:
Attachment:
LisaAssembler25D.zip

Cheers



Well, as I mentioned earlier, I've already downloaded version 2.5D (from the the site you're mentioning). Thank you.


Quote:
Lazer's Interactive Symbolic Assembler

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lazer's Interactive Symbolic Assembler (Lisa) is an interactive MOS 6502 assembler for Apple II computers written by Randall Hyde in the late 1970s.

The latest version of Lisa is V3.2. Lisa includes an integrated editor with syntax checking. Lisa can assemble up to 30,000 lines of code in a minute on a 1 MHz computer, a speed achieved due to the editor's pre-parsing of the source code.

Lisa, before v.3, was able to assemble SWEET16 codes, a virtual 16-bit processor implemented as part of the Integer BASIC. However, the Apple II's Integer BASIC ROMs were replaced by Applesoft BASIC ROMs since the Apple II+, and the latter didn't contain the SWEET16 interpreter code.

The assembler also features "Randy's Hi-res Routines", a set of 2D computer graphics commands. Apple II's hi-res display pages (Hi-Res 1: 280 × 160 and Hi-Res 2: 280 × 192) were implemented by Steve Wozniak using two TTL chips. Therefore a software programmer has to deal with the discontinuous addressing of screen pixels (a full screen is split into three parts horizontally) and each pixel's coloring properties (each pixel uses 1-bit, its color is determined by that bit's place in a byte and its neighboring pixel). These ready-made subroutines were created to help programmers.

Lisa has a built-in disassembler.


I am searching for v.3.2

I have found the manual but not the actual utility......

Maybe.....

barrym95838 wrote:
Perhaps it's still being "protected" in some fashion?


Thanks anyway :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:41 am
Posts: 442
Location: Wiesbaden, Germany
I think it's an error in Wikipedia. LISA seems to be a popular name or abbreviation for software. There is a LISA 3.2 on sourceforge but in this case LISA stands for "intelligent agents for lisp" or short "LISp Agents". So your version 2.5D may actually be the last version. Everybody can write articles on Wikipedia and therefore one should expect some errors.

_________________
6502 sources on GitHub: https://github.com/Klaus2m5


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:54 pm
Posts: 660
Location: North-Germany
Klaus' explanation is one reason why it might be impossible to find something. Second there is "Apple Lisa" (the computer) which is difficult to sorted out when seeking.
Perhaps one of these might be helpful (I knew this is not exactly what you are looking for :) ):

Attachment:
274_Lisa_v2.6.zip [59.28 KiB]
Downloaded 172 times

Attachment:
lisa40g.zip [83.14 KiB]
Downloaded 166 times

Attachment:
lisa51a35.zip [340.64 KiB]
Downloaded 163 times

Cheers


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:26 pm
Posts: 1918
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
I have no doubt that the disk image for LISA 3.2 is out there somewhere, and available for download ... it's just a matter of finding the appropriate search incantations.

ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II ... bler/lisa/

_________________
Got a kilobyte lying fallow in your 65xx's memory map? Sprinkle some VTL02C on it and see how it grows on you!

Mike B. (about me) (learning how to github)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:54 pm
Posts: 660
Location: North-Germany
Well, I took a deeper look into lisamst1.bny (from http://www.appleoldies.ca/anix/ that was already mentioned):
Attachment:
lisa.64k.png
lisa.64k.png [ 38.13 KiB | Viewed 3883 times ]

Could it be what Kris is looking for?


Cheers


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:26 pm
Posts: 1918
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
I think you're finally on to something there!

In other news, I seem to have found someone who publicly shares my ambivalence toward macros, and it's Randy himself!
Quote:
MACROS

A macro is a single assembly command used to replace several LISA
instructions. A single macro, for example, can replace several 6502
instructions and LISA pseudo-opcodes. In certain circumstances, a macro
definition can help you create a program with fewer bugs since the number of
bugs in a program is proportional to the number of lines of code.

Unfortunately, the overzealous use of macros can actually introduce
several new bugs since macros tend to hide several instructions and their
possible side effects from the programmer. Macros were included with LISA
for two reasons: to make LISA v3.x a more marketable product (few people
will purchase an assembler without macros, even if they really have no use
for macros) and to ease the task of converting assembly language source
listings from other assemblers to LISA. Expert assembly language
programmers rarely use macros since they tend to make programs harder to
read and less efficient.

_________________
Got a kilobyte lying fallow in your 65xx's memory map? Sprinkle some VTL02C on it and see how it grows on you!

Mike B. (about me) (learning how to github)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:46 pm
Posts: 8114
Location: Midwestern USA
barrym95838 wrote:
In other news, I seem to have found someone who publicly shares my ambivalence toward macros, and it's Randy himself!
Quote:
MACROS

...Expert assembly language programmers rarely use macros since they tend to make programs harder to read and less efficient.

I have to wonder what prompted Mr. Hyde to form such an opinion. If anything, macro calls are less obtuse than the constituent assembly language statements.

As for the efficiency argument, it would depend on how one defines "less efficient." Typing sprint menu takes fewer keystrokes than typing the assembly language mumbo-jumbo required to print menu. I'd call that a gain in efficiency, especially in the case of a frequently-used function in one's program.

_________________
x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:26 pm
Posts: 1918
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
I have to wonder what prompted Mr. Hyde to form such an opinion. If anything, macro calls are less obtuse than the constituent assembly language statements.

Yeah, I think he took that last statement too far.

Quote:
As for the efficiency argument, it would depend on how one defines "less efficient."

I think he means that the resultant machine code may have redundant instructions that would be easier to see and optimize out if the macros weren't obscuring the details.

On further reflection, I'm starting to think of macros more as a matter of taste, kind of like manual vs. automatic transmissions in our vehicles. I can easily see the pros and cons of each.

_________________
Got a kilobyte lying fallow in your 65xx's memory map? Sprinkle some VTL02C on it and see how it grows on you!

Mike B. (about me) (learning how to github)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Lisa assembler v.3.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:46 pm
Posts: 8114
Location: Midwestern USA
barrym95838 wrote:
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
As for the efficiency argument, it would depend on how one defines "less efficient."

I think he means that the resultant machine code may have redundant instructions that would be easier to see and optimize out if the macros weren't obscuring the details.

Could be. The decision to use macros instead of lines of code has to be made with the understanding that anything that adds higher-level elements to the source code is bound to bulk up things. Some of the macros I use do just that, whereas others, such as the aforementioned sprint call, produce the same amount of code as typing the individual instruction statements.

Quote:
On further reflection, I'm starting to think of macros more as a matter of taste, kind of like manual vs. automatic transmissions in our vehicles. I can easily see the pros and cons of each.

I am more likely to use macros in forming complicated function calls in which a stack frame must be built prior to calling the subroutine. In such a case, use of a macro reduces the likelihood of introducing an error, as the macro can be written to alert the programmer if a parameter is missing, is out of order, etc.

_________________
x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: