Thanks for your helpful participation, Ed.

FWIW, Applesoft "agrees" more or less with your Version 4r32 result:

_________________
Got a kilobyte lying fallow in your 65xx's memory map? Sprinkle some VTL02C on it and see how it grows on you!

Mike B. (about me) (learning how to github)

I've been looking at this thread with interest as I have a need for a single-precision FP format, preferably IEEE 754 to interface with a system where I have some libraries that use that format, but not any actual low-level code like add, multiply and so on ...




I was curious about this as I want to use 32-bit IEEE 754 for a project (rather than Woz, etc. FP) so gave it a go on an ATmega which uses that format (or is supposed to) and it yielded



Just to compare, in double precision IEEE 754 using my desktop i3:

I can reproduce with BBC Basic 4, and using older BBC Basics.

Really no surprise that the 5-byte format that BBC Basic uses shows more precision than the 4-byre IEEE format I guess.

ehBasic (4-byte floats) yields:



and Applesoft (5-byte floats AIUI):



Interesting observations here: ebHasic and IEEE 754 appear to be the same although I've just dome some superficial checks - and it appears that while Microsofts format (MBF) is similar in terms of bits used (1+8+23), the binary representation is different and IEEE 754 calls for more bits to be used when performing intermediate calculations. MBF preceded IEEE 754 and for 8-bit computers was probably good enough at the time. MSs 5-byte format wasn't generally used on the 6502 as they ran out of code space in typical 8K ROMs at the time - Applesoft having a 12K ROM being a notable exception. (What I've gained from wikipedia and a few other sites this afternoon)

However, Applesoft 5-byte format is virtually identical to BBC Basics 5-byte format in terms of precision with this trivial test (might actually be identical, masked by rounding in printing - I'd need to look at the actual binary values to check)

So - for me, I'm still after a native 6502 implementation of IEEE 754 for single precision numbers, but the above has been an interesting little investigation.

-Gordon

_________________
--
Gordon Henderson.
See my Ruby 6502 and 65816 SBC projects here: https://projects.drogon.net/ruby/

Oh, that's quite interesting in itself - I think Applesoft has rounded up incorrectly. I think the number we are printing must be
which is exactly
.000000001266016624867916107177734375
and so shouldn't be printed as


(One thing about IEEE and Acorn's floating point format is that they get one extra bit for free, because the mantissa, unless zero, would always be normalised to have a leading 1, which therefore need not be stored. I'm not sure about other Basics.)

I think I may have found the difference in 4r32: when A=1/17 (or 2/17, 4/17, 8/17 or 16/17) then although A*A is computed identically, A*A/A comes out different by 2^-36. Probably one unit in the last place, at a guess. (Edit: confirmed. Mantissa of 1/17 is 70F0F0F1 in hex - it's a repeating number and the missing F rounds up to 1 - and the mantissa of the inaccurate result is coming out as 70F0F0F2.)

Thanks for your research efforts, drogon. Microsoft's 40-bit floats were more prevalent than you imply, though, at least in raw population numbers. I'm relatively certain that Commodore had been using them in all of their 8-bit machines (VIC-20, C=64, etc.), all the way back to the first PETs in 1977. And they sold millions of those little machines!

_________________
Got a kilobyte lying fallow in your 65xx's memory map? Sprinkle some VTL02C on it and see how it grows on you!

Mike B. (about me) (learning how to github)

SANE (Standard Apple Numerics Enviroment) uses IEEE 754; there is a 6502 implementation. It's also in the Apple IIgs Toolbox, but the implementation (the one in ROM, anyway) just switches to 8-bit mode and executes the 6502 code, if memory serves.

Apple Assembly Line published a series of articles implementing a 18 digit BCD floating library (DP18), starting in the May 1984 issue. They also sold a 21 digit binary floating point libary called DPFP.

http://www.txbobsc.com/aal/index.html

The floating point format used by KIM Focal is the same as the Rankin/Woz format (by coincidence, I suspect).

There's also this discussion of the Rankin/Woz routines from 15 years ago:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=495

When you think about it, this makes complete sense. I don't think 8-bit 6502 code on an '816 is at any particular disadvantage in this case. The system is probably dominated by 8-bit data motion beyond any potential benefit you might get from using 16b ADC and SBC.

Thanks for that!

Hmm, I think I might have learnt something - see the thread over on stardot where I look at little further at Basic 4 vs Basic 2:
https://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 20#p238620

The bottom line is that my efforts to make a figure of merit by computing A*A/A-A might well be misguided: a non-zero answer for various values of A could be correct, for correctly-rounded finite-precision computation.

That said, I might still be missing something.

True, but generally smaller errors are still better. Correct rounding minimises error at each step.

Careful with that - double rounding can introduce error. There's a particular case where it's beneficial to round to odd, where the normal choice is to round to even. I can't find the article I read about this, but here's a similar one:
https://www.exploringbinary.com/double- ... nversions/

Here's the Woz normalizer in the Apple ][ ROM:
That CMP #$C0; BMI RTS1 is a pretty neat hack! I made my updated version even faster [Edit: at least faster for two or more shifts] by keeping M1 in A and X1 in Y for the loop, and I made it so X can point to either accumulator to minimize the need for SWAP:

_________________
Got a kilobyte lying fallow in your 65xx's memory map? Sprinkle some VTL02C on it and see how it grows on you!

Mike B. (about me) (learning how to github)