6502.org Forum  Projects  Code  Documents  Tools  Forum
It is currently Sat Nov 23, 2024 1:14 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Random IC in my bin
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:25 am
Posts: 49
I bought a box of assorted SMD parts on eBay about 15 years ago and I'm just getting around to figuring out the identity of some of the buried little bags of ICs. I wanted to bring up one that I found in hopes of sparking a useful discussion for other newbies because I was bored.

The chip is a SP385ACA. It says in the data sheet that it is a RS-232 transceiver. Is this chip useful? My gut says yes, but how would I use it? Connected to a 6522?


Attachments:
sp385aca (rs-232).pdf [65.89 KiB]
Downloaded 66 times
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Random IC in my bin
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:09 am
Posts: 8545
Location: Southern California
In the 65 family, you would typically use it with the 6551 ACIA (asynchronous serial communications interface adapter), or UART (universal asynchronous receiver/transmitter), for RS-232. Maybe they didn't want to call the '51 a UART, feeling that "UART" is not a very appropriate name because UARTs generally still need the line drivers & receivers to adapt them to the higher positive and negative voltages required by RS-232. Your IC does the signal level conversions. It's unusual but not unheard-of to use it with a 6522 bit-banging the asynchronous serial signaling protocol. Since you're kind of new on the forum, I don't know/remember what your level of knowledge of RS-232 is, so I'll offer my 6502-oriented RS-232 primer. (My apologies— This particular page has very little in the way of pictures or diagrams for the first half.)

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Random IC in my bin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:46 pm
Posts: 8509
Location: Midwestern USA
ThisWayUp wrote:
I bought a box of assorted SMD parts on eBay about 15 years ago and I'm just getting around to figuring out the identity of some of the buried little bags of ICs. I wanted to bring up one that I found in hopes of sparking a useful discussion for other newbies because I was bored.

The chip is a SP385ACA. It says in the data sheet that it is a RS-232 transceiver. Is this chip useful? My gut says yes, but how would I use it? Connected to a 6522?

As Garth said, you would use it with a UART, not a VIA. Functionally, the SP385ACA is similar to the better-known MAX232.

_________________
x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Random IC in my bin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:25 am
Posts: 49
Well thats a lot to go over. Your primer, Garth, is mindblowingly dense. My biggest initial question is why did they use -10 to +10v?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Random IC in my bin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:09 am
Posts: 8545
Location: Southern California
ThisWayUp wrote:
why did they use -10 to +10v?

It's to make it easier to get over electrical noise—although I think there were probably better ways it could have been done, like what they did in RS-485), electrical noise that is more likely to be encountered on something like a large factory floor than in a house or office.

_________________
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Random IC in my bin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:46 pm
Posts: 8509
Location: Midwestern USA
ThisWayUp wrote:
Well thats a lot to go over. Your primer, Garth, is mindblowingly dense. My biggest initial question is why did they use -10 to +10v?

Actually, the original spec published in 1960 called for +/-12, but standard has been revised over the years and currently +/-3 is the minimum and +/-15 is the maximum. As Garth noted, the main concern when the standard was developed was noise, especially common-mode noise that was frequently an uninvited guest in data circuits of the time—power receptacles didn't have grounds in those days.

If two devices are powered from different line circuits, low voltage AC might appear on the TIA-232 ground, which is common to both devices (such a condition is referred to as ground plane potential imbalance—GPPI). GPPI voltage would add to or subtract from the nominal signal voltage at a 120 Hz rate. As long as the peak-to-peak amplitude of the superimposed AC was less than the DC signal level, it wasn't likely to mess up data transmission. Hence a relatively high voltage—by computer standards—was chosen, and in order to unambiguously distinguish between a mark and a space, opposing polarity was used.

Garth mentioned TIA-485. Like TIA-232, this too is an asynchronous data link, but the two signal lines are balanced to ground, operating in differential mode. The presence of a mark or space is strictly determined by the polarity between the two signal leads—with only an indirect reference to ground. Typical operating voltage range is 1.5 to 5. The result is much greater noise immunity, especially common-mode rejection, and the ability to operate over long distances, up to 4000 feet without requiring repeaters. Starting in the late 1980s, I did a number of factory installations that use TIA-485 to connect computers to shop machines. Many of these connections involved hundreds of feet of cable, often routed near humongous electric motors that generate a ton of noise. It all worked very reliably.

The principle of opposite-polarity signalling substantially predates the development of the computer. Railroad automatic block signal systems have used it for nearly 125 years to assure that critical circuits will reliably perform over distances of several miles. Prior to the introduction of electronics to railroad signalling (which was a slow process), a device called a polar relay was used at the receiving end to control different parts of the signal system according to input signal polarity. A polar relay has three states: off, and two on states that open/close different contacts depending on the polarity of the applied voltage. Aside from adding a measure of reliability to the system, a polar relay could produce three possible states from a single pair of wires, a not-inconsequential consideration when you think of the many miles of wiring needed on a long railroad line.

BTW, the TIA-232 standard only defines the signalling method, that is, the electrical interface and timing characteristics. The standard doesn't define the transmission/reception protocol to be used. The TIA-485 standard also doesn't defined protocol and unlike TIA-232, doesn't even define the types of connectors to be used. Neither standard makes cable recommendations. In practice, CAT3 UTP is usually used for the purpose. However, there have been a few times where I've rigged up a TIA-232 link using doorbell wire. :D

TIA-485 can be used to implement a bus-style network with talkers and listeners. Over moderate ranges (typically 100 meters or less) and using CAT5 UTP, a speed of 1 Mbit/second is possible. The AppleTalk network was based upon TIA-422, which is similar to TIA-485, but not as flexible.

_________________
x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Random IC in my bin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 9:20 pm
Posts: 155
Location: UK
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Prior to the introduction of electronics to railroad signalling (which was a slow process), a device called a polar relay was used at the receiving end to control different parts of the signal system according to input signal polarity. A polar relay has three states: off, and two on states that open/close different contacts depending on the polarity of the applied voltage. Aside from adding a measure of reliability to the system, a polar relay could produce three possible states from a single pair of wires, a not-inconsequential consideration when you think of the many miles of wiring needed on a long railroad line.

Polar relay circuits are still in use on many railways. Although in the U.K. the more modern version is normally a polar circuit made with two identical relays, each of which is made polarity sensitive (by magnetic means) wired back to back, with opposite polarities. So you get one of three states: both de-energised, one energised, or the other energised. Used to save the cost of long cables with lots of cable cores.

Note that the standard has changed name over the years, TIA-232 is often known by its older name of RS-232. The Wikipedia page is here.

TIA-232 has been used at 1200 baud to cover distances of greater than 400 yards when using good quality twisted pair telecom cables.

With short range connections (say three metres or less) TIA-232 will normally work fine at +/-5V.

Some of these line driver chips run off the +5V rail, and use +10V/-10V because they use a capacitor based voltage doubler and inverter. So as they run off a single +5V supply, double is approximately +10V, and when inverted becomes nominally -10V. But when under load, the voltages will dip slightly.

Mark


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Random IC in my bin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:25 am
Posts: 49
Fantastic! This is exactly why I posted this. Great information! This is why I love this forum. I will definitely spend some time looking into polar relay circuits today. Whenever I see a -X, +X voltage the thing that springs to mind is op-amps.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Random IC in my bin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:46 pm
Posts: 8509
Location: Midwestern USA
1024MAK wrote:
Polar relay circuits are still in use on many railways. Although in the U.K. the more modern version is normally a polar circuit made with two identical relays, each of which is made polarity sensitive (by magnetic means) wired back to back, with opposite polarities. So you get one of three states: both de-energised, one energised, or the other energised. Used to save the cost of long cables with lots of cable cores...Note that the standard has changed name over the years, TIA-232 is often known by its older name of RS-232. The Wikipedia page is here.

Thanks for repeating what I wrote. :D

BTW, the Wikipedia TIA-232 page shows some obvious ignorance on the part of at least one editor. I quote: "The voltage swing requirement also limits the upper speed of a compatible interface." The "upper speed of a compatible interface" limitation is not voltage-related—almost all currently-available TIA-232 hardware is good for 115.2Kbps.

Quote:
TIA-232 has been used at 1200 baud to cover distances of greater than 400 yards when using good quality twisted pair telecom cables.

In the days when my company used to do large-scale installations of serial terminals, printers, etc., we had some runs of hundreds of feet operating at 115.2Kbps. The longest run we had was to a WYSE 160 terminal, with the interface operating at 115.2Kbps over a (measured) cable length of 325 feet. We used Equinox SST hardware in our servers, which drove the serial interface at +/-12 volts.

We've done a number of shop networks based upon TIA-485, running at very high speeds over hundreds of feet (also using Equinox SST hardware). Those were wired with CAT5 UTP and were reliable at 2Mbps over 300 feet (in violation of the 10^8 rule :D), even in cases where cable was run in close proximity to arc welders and large, integral-horsepower motors.

_________________
x86?  We ain't got no x86.  We don't NEED no stinking x86!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: