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CPLDs....
http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3261		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  banedon [ Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:07 am ]
Post subject:  CPLDs....
If you've been following my GAL thread you'll know that I've been experimenting with Lattice 22V10B GALs and WinCUPL to make an all-in-one decoder package and all seems to be going fine... except for a few things. I'm beginning to find that the maximum number of product terms on some pins to be a bit limiting and also it's very easy to run out of pins(!).
Another concern is that GALs are a fairly old technology and for the most part are no longer being produced.

As such, I'm thinking of delving into CPLDs and possibly FPGAs.
From what I can discover, CPLDs are of more interest as they don't have to have external components (EEPROM), are good to go from power up, and geared towards gates as opposed to FPGAs which are more "computer solution in a chip".
(let me know if I'm wrong).

I was thinking of using this device (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/30148.pdf) to see if I can turn it into an address decoder.
My questions... does anyone see any issues with using this devices - at least on the surface?
Also, I'm a little unsure of how to program Atmel CPLDs. I've read in some places that you can program it in-situ via JTAG? I.e. in the circuit/breadboard much in the same way that you can program a ATMEGA microcontroller?
Author:  floobydust [ Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CPLDs....
Yes, I've followed the thread quite a bit. I started a similar project about a year ago but haven't managed to get around to it... work and other priorities. I opted for the Atmel AT750CL, which is compatible with the 22V10 but provides a superset according to Atmel. You're right on the number of pins and such... a bit limiting. My basic goal is to use it for qualified read and write lines for memory (and some I/O chips), a ROM select and 6-I/O selects which are 32 bytes wide each. I'm using a 32KB RAM for the first 32K of addressable space so I don't need the GAL to decode that, I just use A15 for the /CS line.

I'm hoping to get around to doing the coding with WinCUPL and get something working over the next few months, time permitting.
Author:  BigDumbDinosaur [ Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CPLDs....
banedon wrote:
I was thinking of using this device (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/30148.pdf) to see if I can turn it into an address decoder.
My questions... does anyone see any issues with using this devices - at least on the surface?

I don't recommend the ATF2500 (the device which you refer) or its little brother, the ATF750. Very few programmers are able to work that family of devices and the ones that can program them are expensive.

The Atmel ATF15xx family is "industry standard," operates on 5 volts, and is actually more powerful that the ATF750/2500. If your goal is to use a PLCC-44 package, take a look at the ATF1504AS.

Quote:
Also, I'm a little unsure of how to program Atmel CPLDs. I've read in some places that you can program it in-situ via JTAG? I.e. in the circuit/breadboard much in the same way that you can program a ATMEGA microcontroller?

The ATF15xx family has JTAG, so in-situ programming is supported. I attached data sheets for the ATF1504AS and its big brother, the ATF1508AS. I will be using a 1508AS in POC V2.

Attachment:
File comment: Atmel ATF1504AS CPLD
atmel_atf1504as.pdf [680.96 KiB]
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Attachment:
File comment: Atmel ATF1508AS CPLD
atmel_atf1508as.pdf [690.1 KiB]
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Author:  banedon [ Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CPLDs....
I'll have a look into those - many thanks. The reason I chose the ATF2500C is that it comes in a DIP package. At the moment (as advise in other posts) I'm not too comfortable with PLCC sockets etc. I suppose though I'd best get used to it or be very limited in FPGA and CPLD areas!
Author:  Aslak3 [ Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CPLDs....
banedon wrote:
I'll have a look into those - many thanks. The reason I chose the ATF2500C is that it comes in a DIP package. At the moment (as advise in other posts) I'm not too comfortable with PLCC sockets etc. I suppose though I'd best get used to it or be very limited in FPGA and CPLD areas!


PLCCs, in their sockets, are not that difficult to deal with. With through-hole PLCC sockets, the pins are still on our favourite 0.1 inch spacing. Laying out PCBs is not much more of a chore then DIP either, and the result will be a better use of space.

I have successfully breadboarded up PLC44 parts, using an adapter.

So, yes, I really recommend you go for PLCC and make use of the more advanced parts. Just make sure you: 1. stick to 44 pins if you can, 2. get through-hole sockets and not SMT ones.
Author:  cbscpe [ Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CPLDs....
Hi,

PLCC is not a problem, so my only concern is what design software supports those CPLDs and which USB JTAG adapter can be used to program the ATF15xx? I have to admit that I never used JTAG and when reading in the internet I have no clue how to make sure which interface and which software is compatible and does support which devices. I'd really appreciate that someone with experience with these ATMEL CPLDs can come up with some hints or recommendations.

Thanks

Peter
Author:  BigDumbDinosaur [ Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CPLDs....
cbscpe wrote:
Hi,

PLCC is not a problem, so my only concern is what design software supports those CPLDs and which USB JTAG adapter can be used to program the ATF15xx? I have to admit that I never used JTAG and when reading in the internet I have no clue how to make sure which interface and which software is compatible and does support which devices. I'd really appreciate that someone with experience with these ATMEL CPLDs can come up with some hints or recommendations.

I took the path of least resistance and purchased Atmel's kit, which connects to a PC's parallel port. Atmel did publish a JTAG circuit somewhere on their website, but I don't have a link to it.
Author:  cbscpe [ Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CPLDs....
Exactly my problem "parallel port". I don't have any (Mac :| ), any Ideas how to avoid the parallel port issue?
Author:  BigDumbDinosaur [ Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CPLDs....
cbscpe wrote:
Exactly my problem "parallel port". I don't have any (Mac :| ), any Ideas how to avoid the parallel port issue?

I can't help you there. I have no familiarity with contemporary Mac hardware. Does your Mac have any general purpose I/O ports other than USB?
Author:  cbscpe [ Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CPLDs....
No, other than USB and Ethernet, nothing genuine. What I found is that this ATDH1150USB-K ISP Cable for CPLD is supposed to support ATF1502/4/8. The cable is about 50-60USD, that's well within the hobby budget. I already used Parallels to run Windows XP in a virtual machine and the support to pass through USB devices in Parallels is really good, never had issues with any USB device. This leaves it to the questions, is it supported by WinCUPL and are Windows XP drivers available or included with WinCUPL? Do you know that?
Author:  floobydust [ Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CPLDs....
Current Mac hardware provides Gigabit Ethernet and WiFi for network connectivity, Bluetooth for peripherals like keyboard, mice, audio devices, etc., Thunderbolt ports for additional video and other devices like external drives and Ethernet adapters, an SDXC card slot and multiple USB (3.0) ports for anything else.

I use VMware Fusion for virtual machines... Linux, BSD, Windows XP, Win 7 Pro 64-bit, etc., and also can assign USB devices to the VM. Device drivers for Windows work fine in all cases, so one should be able to use just about any Windows device driver that supports a USB device. I use a Dataman programmer and the FTDI USB/serial adapters without issue. I just wish I had bought the 48-pin programmer rather than the 40-pin programmer, the the former supports the larger Atmel CPLDs. The 40-pin programmer will handle smaller 16v8, 22v10 and newer stuff like the AT750C. It also has a JTAG interface, which I've not tried.
Author:  cbscpe [ Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CPLDs....
Hi floobydust,

so this leaves open just my only question, will it work with ATF15xx. But I decided to just order this:

http://www.kanda.com/products/Kanda/ATDH1150USB-K.html#desc

and give it a try. If it doesn't work then I just spent some 60USD. No risk no fun I'd say.

According to http://www.atmel.com/tools/ATDH1150USB.aspx I should be able to use it with Windows XP in my virtual machine (and as you said assigning USB devices to virtual machines really works well).

cheers

Peter
Author:  floobydust [ Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CPLDs....
Hi Peter,

Well, I checked the supported device lists for the 40 and 48 pin programmers... unfortunately, only the more expensive one will handle the ATF15xx devices. It also handles ATF25xx devices, but it's not cheap ;-(

http://www.dataman.com/programmers/univ ... ammer.html

(click on downloads and get the supported devices PDF)

You also need some adapters for certain chip formats (i.e., PLCC, etc.)

I've been using the Dataman 40Pro for a couple years now and it's been 100% reliable. They also provide updates frequently with new devices added which is nice... but yea, you sorta pay for that.
Author:  cbscpe [ Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CPLDs....
Hi floobydust,

I'll test the Atmel USB ISP download cable as soon as it arrived. If it works I don't need a programmer and I can even do in-system update of the CPLD. The cable is only 60USD, no big investment, ATF1504AS (10ns PLCC-44) should be arriving next monday as well. PLCC to DIP adapters for the breadboard are already ready. In the meantime I need to make myself more familiar with WINCupl.

cheers

Peter
Author:  banedon [ Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CPLDs....
I'd be interested in the results as well, Peter. If it works then I'm happy to invest in one.
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