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Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2773		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  cbscpe [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
Hi,

I know GALs or PLDs are really old fashion. But hey, a 6502 is even older and as it was already said on this forum, why use a 6502 as a base of computers, because it is fun. And so I think are GALs and PLDs, they are fun to use, are available in DIP Package, 5V compatible and easy to use. Especially in 6502 based computers where you just wan't to replace a handful of 74xxxx with a simple 16V8 or 22V10 to make your design small and more flexible. Unfortunately my old DOS based programmer (a ALL-01) and soon afterwards the old DOS computer (it had to be a really slow computer with ISA slots else the software would not run) died. I have read much about problems with programmers or GALs/PLDs that do not cooperate (especially ATMELs ATF series) or GALs that are still available from some vendors but not supported (e.g. the GALBLASTER an open source programmer, does not support Lattice 22V10D<--the D is important), I stepped over Kanda selling a Wellon VP-290 programmer for a reasonable price (it says 120 Euros, adding shipping and tax this would still fit in my "budget"). They even sell a PLD Logic Training Kit specifically supporting the ATMELs PLDs. So has any of you any experience with the Wellon VP-290 programmer and especially together with GALs and/or the Kanda company?

thanks for your feedback

Peter
Author:  GARTHWILSON [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
Along the lines of your "Why...," I would again recommend Samuel Falvo's blog post at http://sam-falvo.github.io/2013/10/06/s ... rvivalism/ . (In spite of the name, it's about hardware too.) I would like to see this way of thinking become more popular and organized. The direction the industry has gone is truly making me think about exiting the field of work (but not the hobby). I have no other skills, but as burned out as I am, I'm just about ready to push a dust mop and stock shelves. I won't make nearly as many dollars per hour, but that's going to have to be ok.
Author:  BitWise [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
cbscpe wrote:
They even sell a PLD Logic Training Kit specifically supporting the ATMELs PLDs. So has any of you any experience with the Wellon VP-290 programmer and especially together with GALs and/or the Kanda company?

I have the Kanda PLD training kit and use it to program ATF16V8 GALs. The kit contains separate programming and testing boards but shows its age by requiring a PC parallel port for connection. I have a very old IBM laptop I keep alive to use with it.

I would recommend looking for a more modern USB GAL compatible programmer.
Author:  cbscpe [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
Hi BitWise

thanks for your comment. Could it be that you have the "previous" version of the starter kit? http://www.kanda.com/category.133.PLD_Starter_Kits.html. When you click on information you see it has been discontinued. The replacement button brings you to the USB PLD Training Kit set including the(more modern) Wellon VP-290 (http://www.kanda.com/products/Kanda/PLD-TRAIN-USB.html), so although the VP-290 is not the top-notch modern programmer, it has USB, it comes with downloadable software for 32-bit. 64-bit on request. So that's ok with me, I'm a MAC user and I'm running Windows XP 32-bit in a virtual machine.

But in short, you were successful using the Kanda Kit to program ATF16V8, so I can assume if they state, that the new Kit does it as well, it will.

Regards

Peter
Author:  mkl0815 [ Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
Not exactly fitting to the topic, but close enough to ask my question here.
On eBay there are a lot of cheap G540 or TOP853 programmers. Has anybody experiences with those for still available GALs nad PLDs?
Mario.
Author:  ElEctric_EyE [ Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
This is worth reading.
Author:  BigDumbDinosaur [ Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
mkl0815 wrote:
Not exactly fitting to the topic, but close enough to ask my question here.
On eBay there are a lot of cheap G540 or TOP853 programmers. Has anybody experiences with those for still available GALs nad PLDs?
Mario.

I have a more up-to-date version of the TOP software that may help. Please contact me via PM if interested.
Author:  cbscpe [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
So I'm still curious, anybody able to program PLD with a G540 or TOP853? And which type if PLDs? ... and the forty thieves has still a lot of GAL22V10D (but the D is the problem, as they do not accept the higher programming voltages typically used by dumb programmers). I myself have a TOP3000 but this is complete crap regarding PLDs. It says that it does support them, he recognises the device it thinks it can program it but then verify fails, what he reads back is actually one row off to what he should have written. I only purchased it some years ago because it was then the only affordable programmer supporting 16-bit EPROMs, and he still does. Daryl seems to have had success programming Lattice PLDs with a G540. But which version (A,B,D)?
Author:  BigDumbDinosaur [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
cbscpe wrote:
So I'm still curious, anybody able to program PLD with a G540 or TOP853? And which type if PLDs? ... and the forty thieves has still a lot of GAL22V10D (but the D is the problem, as they do not accept the higher programming voltages typically used by dumb programmers). I myself have a TOP3000 but this is complete crap regarding PLDs. It says that it does support them, he recognises the device it thinks it can program it but then verify fails, what he reads back is actually one row off to what he should have written. I only purchased it some years ago because it was then the only affordable programmer supporting 16-bit EPROMs, and he still does. Daryl seems to have had success programming Lattice PLDs with a G540. But which version (A,B,D)?

Your software may be out of date. Which version are you running with your TOP3000?
Author:  floobydust [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
I too have just got interested in some GAL type programmable logic for the simplest of tasks, memory and I/O decoding to replace a few logic chips. Atmel seem to have a large selection of this stuff and most distributors stock a large inventory of their products.

After writing some 65C02 code to write their EEPROMs using an old Vic-20. It works fine, but it's a concoction of old/new hardware cobbled together with multiple steps to get the code to the Vic for writing to the EEPROM. I decided to get a good memory programmer mainly to eliminate another HW design and additional coding (the EEPROM code already written will end up in a SBC board for updating the EEPROM as a utility). After much searching about, I ended up with a Dataman MemPro. It's been flawless and writes a full AT28HC256 in about 8 seconds with verify. I've written a few chips hundreds of times each with no issues to date.

I just upgraded the MemPro to the 40Pro universal programmer and got some Atmel ATF22V10C chips in. Just to try it out, I grabbed Daryl's JEDEC file for his DEC-1 decoder chip. The 40Pro programmed and verified it in about 3 seconds. I then ran a Read test and it passed comparing to the buffer. I also did a Blank test, which failed, then Erased the chip, which passed... did the Blank check again, which passed this time, then went back and programmed/verified it again and it passed.

Now I need to modify my existing CPU card and define the logic to suit my requirements before I can test it live in a system. But I'm guessing if the programmer can write it, read it, verify it, erase it and all checks are functioning 100%, it should be working.

And no, the Dataman is not cheap, but it's one thing I don't want to have to design, build and create software for... I prefer to limit that to hardware design as required and focus what little time I do have on the 65C02 coding for the hobby system I'm building up. In any case I can highly recommend the Dataman universal programmer. The current supported device list is over 30K devices.
Author:  ElEctric_EyE [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
floobydust wrote:
... And no, the Dataman is not cheap, but it's one thing I don't want to have to design, build and create software for... I prefer to limit that to hardware design as required and focus what little time I do have on the 65C02 coding for the hobby system I'm building up. In any case I can highly recommend the Dataman universal programmer. The current supported device list is over 30K devices.

You might as well skip this step and buy a $50 USB cable to program Xilinx CPLDs/FPGAs, buy the $10-$30 CPLD/FPGA and download the free ISE software. I think one would find their money working more for the desired end-goal. Time to lose the old-school at this point IMO...
Considering the simplest Xilinx CPLD, a 44-pin XC9536 SMD to DIP adapter is still cheaper in addition to the previously mentioned costs. Especially since most costs are one time only.
Author:  enso [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
If anyone is interested, I have even a few XC3S50s I could part with for $6 apiece.
Author:  cbscpe [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
Hi,

I got TopWin 6.36 2013-08-20. I downloaded it from that Chinese (www.topwin6.com) homepage (you need Google Chrome to read it :-).

When I purchased the TOP3000 about 3 years ago it came with a mini CD with the software on it. I can't tell for sure, but I think this software worked with my old GALs. However as I lost the CD (or let's say it must be in one of my zillion boxes but I did not find it up to know, the box and the CD). So I just googled a little bit and found this new software. So I'd rather would tray an old software than a newer. But just saw that 6.41 has been released the 26th of november. I'll give it a try

Regards

Peter
Author:  cbscpe [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Programmer for GALs/PLDs
Just an update for those interested.

With the Top3100 I was not able to program any of my GALs. So this box is a complete failure when talking about PLDs. I got this programmer many years ago. I bought this one as it was one of the very few that supported the 16-bit wide EPROMs.

Now I have a Genius G540. Another Chinese Box with Chinglish software. First tests were very disappointing. It does not any of my old GALs (non-A,B,C Versions) from Lattice and most of the GALs from National Semiconductors don't work either. The strange thing it always tells me that VEE (Programming Voltage) is 13.7Volts and I know that's not correct for old GALs (they need up to 16.5Volts). And I know it because my (now defunct) GAL Programmer worked with all these GALs and it used those higher voltages.

In the meantime I could get hold of some new GALs and could successfully program, test and use the following GALs with Version Genius G540 Software5.20

GAL16V8D-7LP from Lattice
GAL20V8QS-10LNC from NS
GAL22V10D-24LP from Lattice
GAL22V10D-7LP from Lattice

I would appreciate if others could also report success and non-success of their combinations of programmers and GALs.

Peter
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