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 Post subject: Re: A little off topic.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:18 am 
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Posts: 704
Location: Texas
I was reading and felt like replying:

I think the Ben Eater series is great. He breaks it down into something understandable and reasonable. He explains why, not just what. I (personally) cannot stand to use breadboards, but as a learning tool I guess it works. Could things be "better"? Eh, maybe. But he is only one man, and as I have noticed, it *seems* like he used Garth's design anyways. So the original source of knowledge should actually be Garth's 6502 Primer. At least a mention/link would have been good etiquette.

Ben's videos were inspirational for me, not in 6502, but in PS/2 keyboards and video cards. I like starting with the "worst" version and then improving upon it. That is how I learn, and teach. I realize that Ben has brought a lot of new folks here to the forum, which I think is great. Did he ever officially mention/link to the 6502.org forum though?

As for the future of Ben Eater, it is interesting to think about, but what further direction *could* he go? He has all the basics, and that was the point: basic educational videos and breadboarding kits. It is almost as if YOU the student need to now piece them all together.

Do you think Ben is reading our conversations? Probably. Keep that in mind!

Thanks everyone.

Chad


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 Post subject: Re: A little off topic.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:27 pm 
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BillO wrote:
Whatever happened to Ben Eater?

He has surfaced. He has a new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHYNxpqKqwo . Thanks Chad ("sburrow") for the notice.

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 Post subject: Re: A little off topic.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:12 pm 
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"This video explores the electrical and timing characteristics of the RS-232 protocol."


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 Post subject: Re: A little off topic.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:33 pm 
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Sheep64 on Sat 9 Jul 2022 wrote:
it is possible that an FPGA series may be forthcoming before Christmas 2022.


Merry Christmas. Although, I didn't expect RS-232.

HansO on Wed 20 Jul 2022 wrote:
The Ben Eater bashing here is getting out of hand.


Some people don't like Ben Eater. I mentioned this briefly. I don't feel strongly about the matter either way but the reaction of others is quite informative. I hoped that my absurd, verb doubled neologism gave appropriate weight to the matter. Apparently not.

I am perhaps skewed by a very unusual introduction to Ben Eater. Specifically, from reading the 6502 Forum archive using text-to-speech. In this circumstance, Ben Eater sounds phonetically identical to Benita. I wondered what scorn and vitriol poor Benita drew from an apparent stream of unreconstructed misogynists. I alternated between wanting to delete my account and picturing Benita. Was poor Benita a clueless, chubby geek girl? Or perhaps Benita showed too much cleavage to get maximum views and advertising revenue? Nah. It is just a guy with a Windows screenshot in his one and only software patent. Keep heaping the scorn. That's not a real patent.

Regarding the infamous triple NAND circuit, my analysis is that there are three ways to make a NAND gate into a NOT gate. The accepted technique, common before 1984, is to gang inputs despite this creating the most load and being the slowest. I recommended against this practice. Another technique is to tie one input directly to power. The last technique is to use a pull-up resistor. Fairchild logic chips, definitely from 1984 onwards, have latch-up protection which prevents transients forming an inadvertent PNPN SCR and shorting power to ground. Clones may be vulnerable beyond 1984. A cover-all-cases pull-up resistor is too onerous and this is why inputs are commonly ganged. (It is also why unused 6502 inputs require pull-up resistor but unused logic inputs typically don't. 6502 inputs don't have latch-up protection.) I understand that GARTHWILSON occasionally supports equipment which pre-dates 1984 and uses a stock of 74 logic chips (not 74LS or similar). Even if this is not true, GARTHWILSON is formally trained to use techniques which may have been established prior to 1984. Whereas, Ben Eater probably - but not definitively - cribbed from a random website.

To counter this, there is a culture clash where people on text forums have the time and space to credit every detail; sometimes with hyperlinks. Whereas, video creators have to make arresting content that catches attention within the first six seconds or something equally insane. You have to catch channel flippers when there are a million channels. Good luck with that. I've watched Doug DeMuro's long-form vehicle reviews and some behind-the-scenes explanation of the agonizing decisions to include/exclude various scenes. Even in long-form, Doug DeMuro split a review of the Vector into two parts. There is intense pressure to keep a video under 45 minutes. Otherwise, it excludes people who watch during their commute or lunch hour. Technically, it is possible to watch 70 minute video at 1.5 times speed. However, the proportion of the audience who are willing and able to do this is ridiculously small.

Shorter is better. It is not a deliberate attempt to veer into edutainment and outsource unpaid tech support to the 6502 Forum. The cool kids load balance themselves across every conceivable channel including Reddit, StackOverflow, Quora, Slack, Discord, Telegram and Twitter. (xxx before posting, check that Twitter is still running.) Some of the whippersnappers are even trying to organize a 6502 system on Facebook. How crazy is that!?

If you only access the 6502 Forum, you might assume that Ben Eater finishes every video with "FOR FREE SUPPORT, ACCESS 6502.ORG." Instead, 6502 Forum is fairly authoritive within its niche and therefore prominent in mainstream search and specialist search systems. Unfortunately, a large proportion of first posts go awry (see here, here, here, here, here and here) and this forum probably has more lurkers than contributors because it can be such a bear-pit. To quote BigDumbDinosaur in an awry discussion, "Every so often, I bite...hard."

There is also survivor bias. Some people are bookish and learned about 6502 from books in the 1970s and 1980s; most notably the Lance A. Leventhal books (which all begin with the same copypasta) and Rodnay Zaks. These people may not be interested in video tutorials but I wonder how many would have bought a VHS tutorial series for any processor architecture, if it were available. The advice when learning natural language (or any advanced skill) is to immerse yourself and surround yourself with experts. The learning starts when the terminology isn't scary. I write long, rambling messages where the journey is often the reward. That definitely isn't for everyone. However, it is only one option in an immersive environment. Read short messages, read long messages, read books, read datasheets, read news articles, use text-to-speech, listen to podcasts, watch beginner videos, watch expert videos, attend user group meetings, study source code. Most importantly, practice basic skills, such as soldering and programming.

(The part about heaping scorn is a joke to lampshade my own numerous prejudices.)

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 Post subject: Re: A little off topic.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:57 pm 
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> Shorter is better.

I do agree!


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 Post subject: Re: A little off topic.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:37 pm 
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Sheep64 wrote:
Another technique is to tie one input directly to power. The last technique is to use a pull-up resistor. Fairchild logic chips, definitely from 1984 onwards, have latch-up protection which prevents transients forming an inadvertent PNPN SCR and shorting power to ground. Clones may be vulnerable beyond 1984. A cover-all-cases pull-up resistor is too onerous and this is why inputs are commonly ganged. (It is also why unused 6502 inputs require pull-up resistor but unused logic inputs typically don't. 6502 inputs don't have latch-up protection.) I understand that GARTHWILSON occasionally supports equipment which pre-dates 1984 and uses a stock of 74 logic chips (not 74LS or similar).

The problem is if an input can go outside the power rails, which cannot happen if an input is connected to Vcc. The only time I've experienced latch-up was when had a Rockwell 65c22 or '32 (I don't remember which) feeding a line printer connected by a long cable running across to the printer which was plugged in to a different mains circuit, and on very rare occasion, a spike that occurred in one circuit and not the other seemed to cause the latch-up. National Semiconductor's (which later became Fairchild's, which later became ON Semi's) ap. note AN-339 goes into great detail on what causes latch-up, and how they made their parts free of latch-up, and how you can avoid it with other manufacturers' parts.

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http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
The "second front page" is http://wilsonminesco.com/links.html .
What's an additional VIA among friends, anyhow?


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 Post subject: Re: A little off topic.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:21 pm 
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Short is better :wink: .


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 Post subject: Re: A little off topic.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:17 am 
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I learned a few things watching his videos, though what I am reading is that he is basing much of his material on GARTHWILSON's primer?


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